Subject:
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Re: Terrorists hate freedom
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:47:59 GMT
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Viewed:
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353 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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First, I think we all can agree that no nation is perfect, including the US.
That said, I am reticent about commenting on Guantanamo because I don’t
believe that enough facts are about the interned are readily available. I
wouldn’t mind debating a similar hypothetical situation if all of the
“givens” were agreed upon.
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You have summed up the problem without realizing it, I think. If, for example,
an administration wanted to quiet someone, all they have to do is throw them in
the Gulag (I like Richard’s appraisal of what it is) and simply refuse to
divulge why they are there! See the problem? If everyone refuses to criticize
the move because “all the facts aren’t in”, then how can the problem ever be
resolved. We need to take the opposite tack - because the government refuses to
give us the details, we need to strongly criticize those in power. Otherwise we
have a tyrrany.
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(snip)
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Oppression never justifies the murder of innocents.
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Interesting theory. No sense in it at all in relation to adult ‘innocents’.
The brutally and mercilessly oppressed could well be open to the entirely
sensible argument that those who take benefit from the oppression are guilty
nonetheless. This isn’t a supposition of mine - this is part of the
indoctrination.
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I have to flat-out reject that assertion. If you cannot agree that women,
pregnant women, the eldery along with children are not innocents, then this
might be a short discussion. This is key, because “terrorism” is defined as
the targeting of innocents with the goal of breaking a society or group’s
resolve-- to use its own humanity against itself in order to cooerce it
into change. It is, in fact, impossible to “terrorize” a military, because
violence perpetrated against an army is called “war”, not “terrorism”. This
is why terrorism is so disgusting, because it is so cowardly. If you want
to oppose a government, then rise up against the government!, not against
its citizens! But the cowards might think, “We are not powerful enough to
oppose the government, let us strike out at it by killing its citizens
instead”. This is not “clever”, but immoral and despicable. Or, at its
essence: 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
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In essense, the rest of the world didn’t care (much) when Osama blew up our
destroyer, but got worried when he blew up an office building. I suppose one
can argue up and down whether anyone is innocent in a war since their efforts
aid the war (or class struggle, or idealogical battle, or... etc.) but
effectively most societies (including any member of Islam that actually is
paying attention to their own doctrine) find killing women and children
offensive.
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Liberation from Evil = Evil from Liberation.
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I don’t get this, sorry.
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If I am being evilly oppressed, and I use evil to liberate myself, I am
mimicing my oppressor and therefore loosing any moral justification for
freeing myself.
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And the irony is, if the U.S. then uses evil to liberate the oppressed, then it
loses any justification for freeing others - that’s the part I think you are
missing.
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I am a fan of democracy. A big fan. I don’t believe in forcing on people,
and I don’t believe in simply giving it to people. Democracy has to be won.
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This is a very interesting assertion. I’m not sure what to do with it. One
the one hand, I believe that things obtained freely are valued less than
things earned. But does this apply to freedoms which we believe are innate
and the right of every person? Are we all be truly “free” if there are
others who are oppressed? Are we, as Democracies, and especially as
Super-Power Democracies morally bound to help the oppressed people of the
world? Are the free obligated to help the unfree? Are the wealthy obligated
to assist the poor?
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Democratic-Man’s Burden? I’ve already weighed in on this on the side of
democracy has to be earned - otherwise the moment we walk out of Iraq, they will
elect a hardline squad of religious zealots who will end democracy and be a
bigger threat to us than Saddam ever was.
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The taste of Freedom will forever linger-- it is like Pandora’s box; surely
subjegation will be less tolerated after having tasted it.
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It would seem so, but watch it go out the window if there is economic problems
(see Germany post WWI).
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Are you talking about systematic injustices that we have created, or that
simply exist? Because surely we are not the cause of every problem in the
third world? (As some manipulatively claim, as in the case of the Jews being
the cause of every problem of Palestinians)
And what is to prevent third world countries, who are even being given aid,
to terrorize and blackmail richer nations for more? How far does poverty
and hopelessness allow one to go? I believe that there are worse things
than starving to death.
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Nothing much comes to mind except stuff that involves even more pain and equal
death.
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I disagree, and I use the Palestinians as an example. They have “struggled”
for national identity for almost 60 years. Certainly if nationhood were
their agenda, it would have transpired by now.
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Well, here’s a typically ignorant American comment (not yours, the following,
which is mine): are the Palestinians recognized as a nation by the U.N.?
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Listen, again I must vehemently disagree. We have not discussed “morality”
yet, but now is a good time. I need to know if you believe that the
deliberate killing of innocents justifies a greater good. From what you’ve
said so far, I believe you do. This whole argument boils down to this,
because this was the idea behind my initial assertion that “terrorists hate
freedom”. “Freedom” is a concept that applies to everyone, not a chosen
few. If I gain (my) freedom by taking away (killing) yours (an innocent), I
have liberated 1 life and taken away (permanently) the freedom of 1 life.
The net result is zero change in “Freedom” in the macro, and the death of a
innocent besides. Sure, you have won your freedom, but at what cost? If
you really loved Freedom, you’d sacrifice your own life, not the lives of
innocents. That’s why the term “suicide bomber” is so disingenuous,
because they denotate themselves around women and children with the intend of
homicide. Blow yourself up in a town square with no chance of hurting
others and I’ll believe you love your “cause”. But they don’t. Because the
goal of terrorism is not freedom.
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Religious fanatics hate freedom - but that applies to most religions. They want
you to behave in accordance to their religious beliefs. But “terrorists” have
fought against repressive governments for greater freedom: IRA, for example (I
don’t want to debate that particular point, so I agree that anyone can disagree
with that). And, I have to say, I don’t approve of IRA tactics at all.
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Let’s be clear what we are talking about here. Are you saying that you would
kill an innocent person to alleviate some “greater hurt”? I ask you: what
can be worse than an innocent being killed? I know of nothing, except
more of the same.
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Yup. And that’s how it gets justified - even more will (allegedly) suffer if
the move is not made. But usually if they are that violent and ruthless, they
will remain so once in power.
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Show me the economic oppression being suffered by al-qaeda. Their leader is
a multi-millionaire. What are their demands? What do they want? Why don’t
we know these things?
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Because you haven’t been paying attention?
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Was it evil for the US to attack Nazi Germany?
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Technically, they attacked us (they declared war in support of their ally,
Japan).
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This is the simplistic path. What do you do if the agenda of the
terrorists is to disintegrate your society into anarchy?
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You can kill ‘em all (but you must ask yourself if that has that worked with
cockroaches). You can remove their support by removing the problem that feeds
their hate (ooooo, but this might involve rethinking our own position). Some
combination of the two?
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Any insight into the reasons/issues/demands of al-qaeda you have would be
most helpful. Understanding WRT movitations appears to be a luxury-- all I
understand now is that if I don’t stop them, they won’t stop.
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I don’t think you can ever truly stop a true wacko except by hunting them down
and dealing with them, but it may well be a useless proposition if you keeping
feeding the monster at the same time. There’s no point in loping off the head
of the Hydra if two more take it’s place. You have to figure out how to stop
the heads from growing back.
-->Bruce<--
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Terrorists hate freedom
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| (...) First off, let's not assume that those detained are "innocent". They all were captured fighting against our forces. When I said "all of the facts aren't in", I meant that I didn't possess all of the facts in order to comment-- and neither does (...) (20 years ago, 14-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Terrorists hate freedom
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| (...) (snippage) (...) First, I think we all can agree that no nation is perfect, including the US. That said, I am reticent about commenting on Guantanamo because I don't believe that enough facts are about the interned are readily available. I (...) (20 years ago, 13-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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