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I was approached yesterday via email by a couple of LDraw fans, and attached was the document below, perfectly formatted in the LDraw.org page layout. After a couple developer responses, I decided to post it here for discussion. (URL) know its not (...) (23 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev) !!
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(...) WOW! This is VERY significant work. Building this knowledge into modeling tools would be awesome. People in the past have hinted at ways of doing this and at the vast and powerful new ways of analysing things that would result. I personally am (...) (23 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Yup! :-) (...) Never thought of it that way. In that case, it would go beyond the primary goal of making parts connectable in the editing of a model file. (...) For now, discuss here. (...) You are right. I fixed the error. (...) A couple of (...) (23 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) it!! This is looking great! It seems like a good start on a difficult problem! It's something I (as a technic modeller) have wanted for a long time! I can see one limitation - the fact that technic axles are actually significantly smaller than (...) (23 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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A note worthy of some serious consideration, I got a priavte email from Jude Beaudin, who suggested the name might infringe on LEGO's interests. He suggested the project be renamed to 'LDraw Connection Database' instead, preserving the acronym and (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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First of all, I think think this thread should be in the top stories section! Secondly,I want it asap! I would pay money for an editor with this implementation in fact I think it would be advantages if the lego group itself implements this or (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Is it restricted in applicability to just LDraw parts? (that is, if there were a competing parts format, could the idea be applicable? Could the database (perhaps with coordinate transformation) itself? If it's not restricted (and I think it's (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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I think that the list of connectors/connections needs to be expanded from what is shown here. My specific concern after reading the draft is that it does not seem to cover the possibility of placing a mini-fig headgear piece on a 1x1 round brick. A (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) I think your comment is correct, the connectability needs to encompass a minifig hat on a standard stud... where there may be weakness in their terminology is that they handle fields of studs as one... and while a minifig hat will NOT fit onto (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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Larry Pieniazek wrote: . . . (...) Hi, I first have to admit that I haven't read the whole proposal. However from what I have read, and the comments, I'm starting to think that what is being proposed is more of a standalone database that is popu (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) I think this document is a good summary of the problem and solution. :) I've got plenty of specific issues, but I'd like to reserve comment for right now. First, it would be good to hear from the people writing programs (ie, Leonardo and (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) I think that was the intent of the authors. When you get a chance to read the whole thing (and you should make yourself some clear time with no distractions, it's fairly intense reading but worth it) you'll see that they speak of things (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) systems - especially once headsets/3d displays are in common use. It would also be great for writing AI software that could 'play' with Legos. Later, Gary (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Oh. I hope so. That makes more sense (at least in my head.) From some of what I read though, I got the impression that the modelling tool was supposed to get the geometry from the DAT file, but lookup the connectivity of the part in some other (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Correct. I was not faulting the authors. I only intended to point out that the community needs to work with them to flesh out the model. I hate to throw in jargon and buzzwords into a discussion, but we will need to either build or adopt an (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Is there a contemporaneous format to which LCD could apply? (honest question) (...) LEGO is sensitive about the use of their name. [No different than GoB(tm)] (...) I think it now stands for LDraw, formerly it was something like LEGO Draw. (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) OK, I see where you're at on that. Yes... it would be nice to just put it in the DAT file itself. Huge advantage to that is that it's there. No need for clunky lookaside files to correlate against. Huge disadvantage of course is that the DAT (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Not sure. LEGO(r)'s own internal format? There IS one but few know details. The LEGO Creator(tm) format? In fact one would speculate that a "good" Creator-like program would need this info to be workable. LEOCad(tm) uses same/different format? (...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) That'd be Karim Nassar's "Artemis" project (URL) (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) That'd be Karim Nassar's "Artemis" project (URL) but I don't think it covers connectors. ROSCO (23 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Depends. The issue really is the compatibility between the libraries, if I understand correctly. Different parts libraries have different center points for the parts, and that's the big issue. A conversion table would have to be made between (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) I would assume BlockCAD. Anton? Though compatibility problems might arise if my assumption is correct about center points on parts - if LCD is (and I believe it most definitely will be) designed around the LDraw library, and that is a factor, (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) I dunno if this could apply or not, depends on how LEGO's format is written. (I don't know details) That's a question for the person who designed their format (and I doubt they'd discuss it here) ;-) (...) I believe its the same library, but a (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) Thanks for the link. Shame on me for forgetting! (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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"Tim Courtney" <tim@zacktron.com> skrev i meddelandet news:GqqIws.2ut@lugnet.com... (...) question) (...) Anton??? Anders!!! No, LCD wouldn't apply to BlockCAD, as it already has it's own 'snap' system: Everything is just a 'block', and can only be (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) I think you got it just right. The LCD has to be associated with a geometry, or it's meaningless. It would make sense to use LDraw for the LCD, especially if the 'L' is for 'LDraw'. ;) Steve (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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"Tim Courtney" <tim@zacktron.com> skrev i meddelandet news:GqqIK0.1rK@lugnet.com... (...) No it's definitely not. Of course, it depends on what you mean with 'the unofficial LEGO CAD universe', but no way I'll accept that figure (99%). BlockCAD is (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) I'd say it should be reduced - there are potentials for generalization in the data. (...) I think the current document suffers from confusing connection possibilities with other physical limitations -- for instance, a car base ((URL)) has a (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Hmm. I read this as "Larry thinks LAD and KACS meant for the LCD data to go *in* the DAT files". But reading section 1.2, (URL), makes it clear that the data is intended to be position in files outside the DATs. But the bottom line is that (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Hmm. Interesting. Compare and contrast various types of connections: cross-axles (can't rotate), click-hinges (rotate freely, but with 'sweet spots'), plate hinges (rotate freely). Steve (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) For anyone who (else) who doesn't know what 'ontology' means, and doesn't want to depend on context to derive the meaning, (...) Steve (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Well that's kind of my point. LCD is an acronym, just as LUGNET(tm) is. So I don't see LCD standing for "LEGO(r) <mumble> <mumble>" as being bad or wrong per se any more than that LUGNET stands for "LEGO Users Group NETwork" being bad or wrong (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Right. That wasn't what I was trying to say at all. I wasn't talking about format. What I was getting at was that the data (wherever it lives) was intended to be used for driving programs to make things snap into place, not just for doing (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) LDraw is promoted as LDraw, LUGNET as LUGNET, etc... My concern was this was initially being promoted as LEGO Coordinate Database. If it is promoted as LCD then I agree the issue is not as important. I sent this to Tim in a private email (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) The only pain is updating all the parts at once. But if we collect and format the data, we could use a script to (a) insert the data into the files and (b) report problems: no LCD data for a file, problems inserting the LCD data into a file, (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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Thank you Steve for inserting the definition that I forgot to include. (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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Wow, for a second there, I thought the authors had really made a 3-D rendering of God from The Brick Testament. @8^) (URL) was amazed that someone had taken the time to model God's hair, which I had hand-carved out of a white helmet because LEGO has (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | God(tm)
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(...) These words strike me as EXTREMELY funny... But then again, what are the chances that some major religion (Catholicism...I'm looking in your general direction!) uses this very phrase in possible litigation within the next 25 years or so? Matt (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Well, the religion Scientology (which, I state clearly and for the record, is absolutely NOT a wacko fringe cult founded by a hack SF author for the sole purpose of bilking money out of the credulous, the desperate, or the mentally ill, nor is (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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"Anders Isaksson" <isaksson.etuna@REMO...tninet.se> wrote in message news:GqrtF0.G01@lugnet.com... (...) DOH! Sorry about that. I mentioned Anton's library in another post, and slipped here. (...) really (...) Yup. -Tim (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) I'm sorry Dave!...you're meaning just isn't very clear here...perhaps you should quit beating around the bush and get down to brass tacks...if you are going to pussy-foot around the issue, why even post to this thread at all? I just don't (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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"Anders Isaksson" <isaksson.etuna@REMO...tninet.se> wrote in message news:GqrtFB.G1E@lugnet.com... (...) I meant LUGNET and the circle of lurkers around it, the AFOL community. Which, perhaps it is not 99% (I admit to an exaggeration for the purpose (...) (23 years ago, 30-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Yes! A random Lego model generator! That would be distinctly weird, but fun :) Adrian -- www.brickfrenzy.com (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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Steve Bliss wrote: > In lugnet.cad.dev, Kyle McDonald wrote: > > >>This would be good. I'd like something that can describe >>joints or pivot points. >> > > Hmm. Interesting. Compare and contrast various types of connections: > cross-axles (can't (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) Just my two cents on this - I would enjoy seeing the work being discussed here and the project, to be split into two versions (at least). A "version 1" would contain the data necessary to provide the "snap" information for the placing of (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: God(tm)
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(...) The preceeding message has been forwarded to devout Scientologist John Travolta. Let's all watch to see how long Dave continues to be 'Staying Alive'. Sheesh! Trash-talking the same folks who brought you the finest cinematic experience ever: (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) OMG(tm) Matt, I guess you didn't know about Dave! I mean about how he was once held hostage for hours by Scientologists in a room in which a montage of scenes from Battlefield Earth was projected onto the walls around him while the the theme (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) In lugnet.off-topic.fun, Maggie Cambron writes: (...) Yes, it could be true as I've heard the same rumor. I've also heard that there are still alien corpses at Area 51, so I'm not sure what to believe anymore. Elvis Presley is still alive (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Hey, she's an excellent dentist. Pulled my wisdom tooth for 65 bucks. 'Course that was a few years ago. (...) I noticed the same thing-- maybe it was... **insert eerie music here** ...mind control... Maggie (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Alive'. Isn't Tom Cruise part of that bunch, too? ROSCO (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) AFAIK, yes. Add Lisa Marie Presley to that list as well. It's an appealing way to go if you are an entertainer, I guess. -Dave (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Selfosophy! :) (paraphrasing from Millenium): "Why are we being careful about these guys? We don't hesitate when fighting the forces of darkness." "The forces of darkness can't sue, Frank." James Card-carrying Supressive Person. (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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Isn't the way this thread is going proof that there is no God®? -- Hop-Frog (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) I remember reading that the fundamental proof that got does not exist is the “Babel Fish”? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Look, can we just get past this? I'm sure it was as unpleasant for the Scientologists as it was for me, but I'd like to let bygones be bygones (not that I have anything against the Church of Scientology, which is unquestionably *NOT* a (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) All you rumormongers really need to get it straight--they're not "corpses," they're Guests. And Elvis isn't still alive--he never lived in the first place except as an animatronic construct. Are we clear now? Dave! (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) I have no first-hand knowledge of that, but here's a starting link: (URL) for the record that I've never asserted that Scientology is a "crime syndicate" or a "criminal empire," nor have I described their fine website as "absurdly idiotic." I (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) Can you remember any names or URLs? I'm always interesting in seeing a new brick program. Steve (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) Isn't that what the LCD is all about? The program can tell which piece is connected to what other piece... Now, if we can model gear-teeth meshing, that will be incredibly awesome... Steve (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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(...) No, distinctly fun, but weird. :-) I would want it to crank through all the possible ways to use a connection type... But please note that this usage is a side path... the main utility is in "snap" behaviour. MLCad snapgrid, for instance, is (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) Well I think that would be a good thing, I was under the impression that the goal of LCD was to allow modelling programs to help the user properly *place* the parts, not ness. remembering the connections. But maybe I'm missing something. If (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) A while ago, there was a website about a genetic algorithm which created lego bridges. There was an applet to run through situations you defined. It would create lego models, and test them for fitness. It was very fun, even though it was only (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LDraw Connection Database - Proposal
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Dears, thank you for the enthusiasm you are accepting our idea with. In the case you are wondering where did we take it from, here is the explanation. Some months ago I begun to play with Lego CAD softwares, liking to build with them, but I haven't (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Brick builder programs (and some more...)
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"Steve Bliss" <partsref@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet news:fnoi5u0qn6m5r46...4ax.com... (...) seen (...) Well, let's see what I can find (I'm offline while writing, so no internet searches)... - "Gryphon Bricks" - I know it has changed name, but I (...) (23 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) Good Ideas... Now figure out a way of getting scripting into the toolset as well. (Currently the only tool is the LDS script compiler.. Which I cant find the URL for..:-( ) Of course ultimatly it will be possible thanks to D3D and Quickdraw or (...) (23 years ago, 1-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: God(tm)
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(...) Operation Clambake? That sounds like Spamcake to me! Is this "crime syndicate" even more widespread than we thought???? ROSCO (23 years ago, 1-Feb-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Animatronics
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(...) Animatronic construct? You mean like Walt Disney, Al Gore, Kevin Costner, and Courtney Cox? Hmmm...must've been an early model then. -Dave (23 years ago, 1-Feb-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: LCD - LDraw Connection Database - Proposal [DAT]
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Kyle McDonald made Thursday a point: (...) Well, let's create an example. 0 Untitled 0 Name: sample.dat 0 Author: LAD 0 Unofficial Model 0 ROTATION CENTER 0 0 0 1 "Custom" 0 ROTATION CONFIG 0 1 1 14 0 0 -20 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 3894.DAT 1 2 -20 24 -40 (...) (23 years ago, 3-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LDraw Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) Only that editors might need to differentiate between 'rotatation' when editing a model, and 'rotation' performed within the physical constraints of a constructed model. Steve (23 years ago, 4-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | LCD - LDraw Connection Database
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Dear all, after we changed the topic to 'LCD - LDraw Connection Database' I modified the logo. Let me say some words about it, what it symbolize. There is the letter "L". Now it means LDraw and subsidiary we can think that it means LEGO too, but we (...) (23 years ago, 4-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: Brick builder programs (and some more...)
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(...) (URL) if you can spot the LEGO reference! ROSCO FUT: .off-topic.fun (23 years ago, 5-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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You're forgetting one important connection! The connection between the tire and the road surface. What about that? -Mike (...) (23 years ago, 6-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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Michael Horvath wrote: > You're forgetting one important connection! The connection between the tire > and the road surface. What about that? > > -Mike > > Well, I think I was assuming that the 'model' itself would be moved by some other part of the (...) (23 years ago, 6-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LDraw Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) Hi guys! What are you talking about? It's written in the proposal: "Finally, a user turns a battery switch on and the car wheels start rotating; and if there is a surface below the car, that can be observed as a connection and the car will (...) (23 years ago, 6-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LDraw Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) Well I think we were talking more about how to actually implement it. How it would actually work. When you get into trying to model these things, I don't think this is the type of thing we can store in either the .DAT file or some new (...) (23 years ago, 6-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LDraw Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) I think there is some examples in the proposal too. (...) Yes, I understand you! It would be a programming language based on and according to the LCD. It would be LMPL - LDraw Model Programming Language. How about that? :) But, I think we need (...) (23 years ago, 6-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LDraw Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) I think the idea of having an LMPL separate from the LCD is definitely a good idea. Not everyone is going to want to do animation or whatnot - I know that I'm personally more interested in just having a good way to connect the parts together. (...) (23 years ago, 7-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - Calling for work
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(...) OK, ladies, gentlemen and minifigs, so everybody is agreeing it is a good idea, what is more, it is already a group of good ideas, including LCD itself (by the way, LCD could stand for Lugnet.Cad.Dev, too! :) and the LMPL language, and so on. (...) (23 years ago, 9-Feb-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: LCD - LEGO Connection Database - Proposal
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(...) Hehe. I, the author of the compiler, had the same problem when my bookmarks had disappeared! So I made a search in lugnet.cad and found your post. Here's the URL: (URL) (22 years ago, 8-Jun-02, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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