Subject:
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Re: A little self examination?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:52:42 GMT
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Reply-To:
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SSGORE@SUPERONLINE.COMstopspam
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Hi Tim,
Actually, I'm also thinking the subject of "is lugnet elitist?" from
time to time, and even throw out some of my 0.02 Turkish liras about the
subject in some cases, both in RTL and here in Lugnet. I'm strongly
against elitism and alienating newcomers from the place.
I also think that this pathetic person is completely out of subject
here. Look at the thread and his stupendous replies, look at the thread
in RTL from Dejanews that he mentioned over and over (he was posting as
madhater, it was not 3 years ago, it must be 1 or 1.5 at most), look at
the fictitious chat and his insane reasoning about why we are so evil as
a community in his web site. He is sick, he has no cure, he is a
complete waste of terran resources. He is an *** **** either naturally,
or by training and no one can be responsible from it.
Back to the subject, we are here from very different parts of this
planet, with very different characters, backgrounds, interests,
cultures, understanding, tolerances, incomes, rules, etc. However we are
still a community. Maybe the only common thing between some of the
people here is the love of the brick, but we still obey some written and
unwritten rules here, mostly nothing but the common sense.
Being a community, besides from the rules, also has its own natures.
Every community has its famous people, i.e. "unofficial leader types". I
don't call this elitism. If you are manager of a big project (like you
and Ldraw organization), if you spend more than anyone here at the
community (like Larry and some others), if you are a knowledgeable Lego
historian (like Gary), if you are owner of the whole thing (like Todd),
if you are a master microfig builder (like Jeremy and Karim), if you
provide some worthy tools for the purpose (like Ldraw and James,
Brickshelf and Kevin, Brickset and Huw) you will be famous, well known
and respected, possibly more than the others. And of course this
examples can be widened much more than this. Some people are also famous
here by just being nice and helpful to others (like Shiri). Everyone
free to be famous here, just as everyone is free to participate.
Elitism, in my mind, is not allowing people to participate who is not a
famous one.
Of course not all the people, actually most of the people here including
me, has not enough means to be famous, some don't have the time, some
don't have the money, some don't have the courage, some don't mind to be
one. As I always said, Lego is not the purpose of my life, just as for
most of the others I think, it's just a spare time fun.
The point here is, if someone is distinguishable from the crowd by
anything he/she perform that relates to the founding purpose of the
community, he/she will be famous than the other participants of the
community. If you are distinguishable, then naturally you are rare, and
rare means "not for everyone". People should accept this. I know my
level of contribution, I know my level of dedication, so I'm happy with
my level of "popularity". Most of my messages went without any replies,
but who cares. I'm one of the most veteran members of Lugnet, but I'm
not so popular around. Many people might even wonder when they see my
member number (#4) who is this guy? When posting a message I mostly just
throwing my 0.02 Turkish Liras and every one has the freedom of taking
it or not, just as me. I already accepted that in full extend. And I
also know that if I say something worthy enough, it will have enough
response.
The other point should made be clear that, I'm strongly against any
forced "leadership" or "popularity", which is the true elitism. Let the
popularity and or leadership go naturally. I objected before to both
"Lugnet Police Force" and "article rating" issues only for this reason.
In addition to this, communities might have some touchy subjects. Ldraw
is one of the examples to our touchy subjects. I clearly remember that I
had been flamed in L-CAD mailing list (before Lugnet) since just I
talked about changing the naming convention of Ldraw parts. But I didn't
feel that this is some alienating approach from the veterans, I reworded
my complaints, that it had been accepted.
Being alienated can be (mostly) related to having expectations which is
unreasonably high. This also works for any community, any group of
people, either virtual or real.
In brief, I believe our community is not an elitist one in its current
form. And I wish this will continue like that.
Selçuk
Tim Courtney wrote:
>
> This whole thing has gotten me thinking -- Matthew was out to prove a point,
> right? Matthew is also a jerk and has serious problems, right. But, just
> because he carried himself *very* poorly here doesn't mean he might not have
> something valuable to say to us. I'm just trying to think if there's
> anything about this community that is out of whack, like he suggested.
>
> I was talking to a friend yesterday about the whole deal - someone who has
> slipped away from Lugnet intentionally but unnoticed. That person feels
> that the community is elitist, and from that person's perspective I
> understand. They feel that when they post here people ignore them, that
> they're a good candidate to kill a thread, etc. I don't like it that my
> friend has had that experience here.
>
> One thing we all know, this is a *community* and communities are made up of
> people with vastly differing opinions and backgrounds. Different tastes,
> levels of tolerance, etc. We've seen a pretty bad case here demonstrated
> yesterday. I doubt anyone currently in the community would repeat such
> actions. But something must have triggered that, whether it was Matthew's
> own personal problem, his genuine experience with the people a few years
> ago, or a combination of both. I'm just asking myself out loud what might
> be our problem, if we have one. I certainly don't want to see anyone hurt
> by this group of people. Unfortunately we had a very upstanding member of
> this group leave a couple weeks ago from frustrations.
>
> So I open it up for thoughts on the issue, and am willing to discuss and
> examine just the same myself. Anyone?
>
> And someone slap me if I'm crazy. I'm writing this because I think that
> what we saw yesterday was pretty serious, and if the community has anything
> to do with it I'd like to see that change. If it was all Matthew and
> whatever he was smoking, that's all fine and dandy I s'pose.
>
> Peace all...
> --
>
> Tim Courtney - tim@zacktron.com
>
> http://www.ldraw.org - Centralized LDraw Resources
> http://www.zacktron.com - Zacktron Alliance
>
> ICQ: 23951114 - AIM: TimCourtne
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Message has 4 Replies:
 | | Re: A little self examination?
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| In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes: [snip for time's sake - test in 40 minutes :\ ] (...) [snip] (...) You hit it right on here. I don't think we see very much not allowing certain people to participate based on their status in the (...) (24 years ago, 19-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: A little self examination?
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| Hi Selçuk, After reading your post and Tim's, I must throw in a "Me too" (as much as those posts are highly detested around here ;-). In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes: [..] (...) As am I. I don't think anyone is really *for* it, but (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: A little self examination?
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| (...) You might be surprised.... For instance (correct me if I am wrong!), you have a good sense of humor, you are a cat person, and IIRC it was you who recently made that utterly charming statement about not knowing enough offensive words to be (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: A little self examination?
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| (...) This may be semantics and I may be repeating myself, but like I said, I think a meritocracy (that is, the "rule" of those with merit) based elitist system is a good basis for a specialised hobby community like LUGNET. I think it IS semantics (...) (24 years ago, 22-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | A little self examination?
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| This whole thing has gotten me thinking -- Matthew was out to prove a point, right? Matthew is also a jerk and has serious problems, right. But, just because he carried himself *very* poorly here doesn't mean he might not have something valuable to (...) (24 years ago, 19-Oct-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate) !
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