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Hi Tim,
Actually, I'm also thinking the subject of "is lugnet elitist?" from
time to time, and even throw out some of my 0.02 Turkish liras about the
subject in some cases, both in RTL and here in Lugnet. I'm strongly
against elitism and alienating newcomers from the place.
I also think that this pathetic person is completely out of subject
here. Look at the thread and his stupendous replies, look at the thread
in RTL from Dejanews that he mentioned over and over (he was posting as
madhater, it was not 3 years ago, it must be 1 or 1.5 at most), look at
the fictitious chat and his insane reasoning about why we are so evil as
a community in his web site. He is sick, he has no cure, he is a
complete waste of terran resources. He is an *** **** either naturally,
or by training and no one can be responsible from it.
Back to the subject, we are here from very different parts of this
planet, with very different characters, backgrounds, interests,
cultures, understanding, tolerances, incomes, rules, etc. However we are
still a community. Maybe the only common thing between some of the
people here is the love of the brick, but we still obey some written and
unwritten rules here, mostly nothing but the common sense.
Being a community, besides from the rules, also has its own natures.
Every community has its famous people, i.e. "unofficial leader types". I
don't call this elitism. If you are manager of a big project (like you
and Ldraw organization), if you spend more than anyone here at the
community (like Larry and some others), if you are a knowledgeable Lego
historian (like Gary), if you are owner of the whole thing (like Todd),
if you are a master microfig builder (like Jeremy and Karim), if you
provide some worthy tools for the purpose (like Ldraw and James,
Brickshelf and Kevin, Brickset and Huw) you will be famous, well known
and respected, possibly more than the others. And of course this
examples can be widened much more than this. Some people are also famous
here by just being nice and helpful to others (like Shiri). Everyone
free to be famous here, just as everyone is free to participate.
Elitism, in my mind, is not allowing people to participate who is not a
famous one.
Of course not all the people, actually most of the people here including
me, has not enough means to be famous, some don't have the time, some
don't have the money, some don't have the courage, some don't mind to be
one. As I always said, Lego is not the purpose of my life, just as for
most of the others I think, it's just a spare time fun.
The point here is, if someone is distinguishable from the crowd by
anything he/she perform that relates to the founding purpose of the
community, he/she will be famous than the other participants of the
community. If you are distinguishable, then naturally you are rare, and
rare means "not for everyone". People should accept this. I know my
level of contribution, I know my level of dedication, so I'm happy with
my level of "popularity". Most of my messages went without any replies,
but who cares. I'm one of the most veteran members of Lugnet, but I'm
not so popular around. Many people might even wonder when they see my
member number (#4) who is this guy? When posting a message I mostly just
throwing my 0.02 Turkish Liras and every one has the freedom of taking
it or not, just as me. I already accepted that in full extend. And I
also know that if I say something worthy enough, it will have enough
response.
The other point should made be clear that, I'm strongly against any
forced "leadership" or "popularity", which is the true elitism. Let the
popularity and or leadership go naturally. I objected before to both
"Lugnet Police Force" and "article rating" issues only for this reason.
In addition to this, communities might have some touchy subjects. Ldraw
is one of the examples to our touchy subjects. I clearly remember that I
had been flamed in L-CAD mailing list (before Lugnet) since just I
talked about changing the naming convention of Ldraw parts. But I didn't
feel that this is some alienating approach from the veterans, I reworded
my complaints, that it had been accepted.
Being alienated can be (mostly) related to having expectations which is
unreasonably high. This also works for any community, any group of
people, either virtual or real.
In brief, I believe our community is not an elitist one in its current
form. And I wish this will continue like that.
Selçuk
Tim Courtney wrote:
>
> This whole thing has gotten me thinking -- Matthew was out to prove a point,
> right? Matthew is also a jerk and has serious problems, right. But, just
> because he carried himself *very* poorly here doesn't mean he might not have
> something valuable to say to us. I'm just trying to think if there's
> anything about this community that is out of whack, like he suggested.
>
> I was talking to a friend yesterday about the whole deal - someone who has
> slipped away from Lugnet intentionally but unnoticed. That person feels
> that the community is elitist, and from that person's perspective I
> understand. They feel that when they post here people ignore them, that
> they're a good candidate to kill a thread, etc. I don't like it that my
> friend has had that experience here.
>
> One thing we all know, this is a *community* and communities are made up of
> people with vastly differing opinions and backgrounds. Different tastes,
> levels of tolerance, etc. We've seen a pretty bad case here demonstrated
> yesterday. I doubt anyone currently in the community would repeat such
> actions. But something must have triggered that, whether it was Matthew's
> own personal problem, his genuine experience with the people a few years
> ago, or a combination of both. I'm just asking myself out loud what might
> be our problem, if we have one. I certainly don't want to see anyone hurt
> by this group of people. Unfortunately we had a very upstanding member of
> this group leave a couple weeks ago from frustrations.
>
> So I open it up for thoughts on the issue, and am willing to discuss and
> examine just the same myself. Anyone?
>
> And someone slap me if I'm crazy. I'm writing this because I think that
> what we saw yesterday was pretty serious, and if the community has anything
> to do with it I'd like to see that change. If it was all Matthew and
> whatever he was smoking, that's all fine and dandy I s'pose.
>
> Peace all...
> --
>
> Tim Courtney - tim@zacktron.com
>
> http://www.ldraw.org - Centralized LDraw Resources
> http://www.zacktron.com - Zacktron Alliance
>
> ICQ: 23951114 - AIM: TimCourtne
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
[snip for time's sake - test in 40 minutes :\ ]
> Being a community, besides from the rules, also has its own natures.
> Every community has its famous people, i.e. "unofficial leader types". • [snip]
> Everyone
> free to be famous here, just as everyone is free to participate.
> Elitism, in my mind, is not allowing people to participate who is not a
> famous one.
You hit it right on here. I don't think we see very much not allowing certain
people to participate based on their status in the community, and I think that
we are pretty strong for it. Everyone in this group is pretty much given
equal opportunity to participate, and if they're so inclined, rise above the
masses with something exceptional they have to offer, whether its MOCs, a
website resource, finances, etc.
> Of course not all the people, actually most of the people here including
> me, has not enough means to be famous, some don't have the time, some
> don't have the money, some don't have the courage, some don't mind to be
> one. As I always said, Lego is not the purpose of my life, just as for
> most of the others I think, it's just a spare time fun.
Different strokes for different folks. I understand where you're coming
from. For me, Lego is almost a way of life, and what I do on Lugnet is almost
a way of life. (I'm not making a judgment call on whether or not that action
is healthy or not right now). I hope to turn this into something more as
things progress with the community and go through school. I've kept contact
with TLC, etc, and hope to do some stuff for them, yadda yadda. In a sense, I
need to do what I have been doing for those inroads.
> The other point should made be clear that, I'm strongly against any
> forced "leadership" or "popularity", which is the true elitism. Let the
> popularity and or leadership go naturally. I objected before to both
> "Lugnet Police Force" and "article rating" issues only for this reason.
Yep.
> In addition to this, communities might have some touchy subjects. Ldraw
> is one of the examples to our touchy subjects. I clearly remember that I
> had been flamed in L-CAD mailing list (before Lugnet) since just I
> talked about changing the naming convention of Ldraw parts. But I didn't
> feel that this is some alienating approach from the veterans, I reworded
> my complaints, that it had been accepted.
Its all in the approach when you're calling for change. The first time I
suggested ldraw.org publicly, I was even flamed right away.
> In brief, I believe our community is not an elitist one in its current
> form. And I wish this will continue like that.
After reading opinions on this, I believe the same. I do think that everyone
here could stand to be a bit nicer to each other, and a bit more accepting to
other ideas for how things could be done, to newbies, etc. This will help
foster better relationships for the community and bring us closer together -
and hopefully translate into some cool real life experiences.
I for one have met many people through Lugnet in person, and a handful of them
have become really good friends of mine. I'm greatful for that. I'm also
greatful that those people get to see me for who I am, rather than for what I
do. And I'm glad that I get to see them for the same.
-Tim
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Hi Selçuk,
After reading your post and Tim's, I must throw in a "Me too" (as much as
those posts are highly detested around here ;-).
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
[..]
> I'm strongly
> against elitism and alienating newcomers from the place.
As am I. I don't think anyone is really *for* it, but many people might not
notice they are doing this. That's when it gets to be a problem (or even
moreso when it is done intentionally-- but I don't think there is someone on
lugnet that really is).
[..]
> Back to the subject, we are here from very different parts of this
> planet, with very different characters, backgrounds, interests,
> cultures, understanding, tolerances, incomes, rules, etc. However we are
> still a community.
Agreed 100%.
> Maybe the only common thing between some of the
> people here is the love of the brick, but we still obey some written and
> unwritten rules here, mostly nothing but the common sense.
In the ideal situation, yes, we all do. Then there are times when not everyone
does, in the heat of the moment, and yes, it happens.
> Being a community, besides from the rules, also has its own natures.
> Every community has its famous people, i.e. "unofficial leader types". I
> don't call this elitism.
Most definitely. We're a small society, even, and any society has the leader
types and the followers. From what little sociology I've learned, some people
are just born leaders; some can't help being a little bossy, others have a
plain "let's stop the talking and all start doing something about it"
approach, and others will just speak up more and so have their opinions heard
(and perhaps respected). Then the majority of the people will speak up here
and there, but mostly keep quiet or just be generally helpful.
[snip many true examples]
> Everyone
> free to be famous here, just as everyone is free to participate.
> Elitism, in my mind, is not allowing people to participate who is not a
> famous one.
Very true. There are no restraints here, and I've seen newcomers
become "famous"/"leaders" in a matter of a few weeks, or just become generally
known. Lugnet as a community, a mini-society, or whatever, is not elitist in
that sense... not at all.
> As I always said, Lego is not the purpose of my life, just as for
> most of the others I think, it's just a spare time fun.
--like Tim mentioned in his reply - that varies. I know at some point or other
lego was a "way of life" for me, but it's not really anymore. (Still a major
hobby, but not a way of life, no.) And there certainly are people for whom it
is. But there's nothing wrong with either way.
> The point here is, if someone is distinguishable from the crowd by
> anything he/she perform that relates to the founding purpose of the
> community, he/she will be famous than the other participants of the
> community. If you are distinguishable, then naturally you are rare, and
> rare means "not for everyone". People should accept this.
Yeah.
[..]
> Many people might even wonder when they see my
> member number (#4) who is this guy?
LOL, mostly because I know exactly who you are and I think a considerable
amount of people do. ;-)
But yes, I see your point. Not everyone can be famous, and many people might
be known in their little area of lugnet (e.g. .[insert theme here], .cad,
or .o-t.[whatever]) but not so much in the general sense.
[..]
> The other point should made be clear that, I'm strongly against any
> forced "leadership" or "popularity", which is the true elitism. Let the
> popularity and or leadership go naturally. I objected before to both
> "Lugnet Police Force" and "article rating" issues only for this reason.
Yeah...
[..]
> Being alienated can be (mostly) related to having expectations which is
> unreasonably high. This also works for any community, any group of
> people, either virtual or real.
Right. So we should (all) be just a leeeetle careful when responding to a
post, without knowing if the person is a newbie or not, or (for example) has
english as a second language, or is relatively young, etc. (Hehe - I remember
getting into some scrapes for EACH of those reasons... <grin>)
> In brief, I believe our community is not an elitist one in its current
> form. And I wish this will continue like that.
Agreed entirely.
> Tim Courtney wrote:
> > I was talking to a friend yesterday about the whole deal - someone who has
> > slipped away from Lugnet intentionally but unnoticed. That person feels
> > that the community is elitist, and from that person's perspective I
> > understand. They feel that when they post here people ignore them, that
> > they're a good candidate to kill a thread, etc. I don't like it that my
> > friend has had that experience here.
That is too bad. I hope that friend realizes that no one intended to hurt
him/her. I doubt anyone really saw him/her as a "good candidate to kill a
thread"... and it's really sad that someone feels that way. I hope he/she
comes back, just to try again...
> > And someone slap me if I'm crazy. I'm writing this because I think that
> > what we saw yesterday was pretty serious, and if the community has anything
> > to do with it I'd like to see that change. If it was all Matthew and
> > whatever he was smoking, that's all fine and dandy I s'pose.
<grin>
<slap>
j/k, Tim, you're not crazy. But really, over-analyzing ourselves won't get us
very far. LUGNET is, for the *most* part, a great place. But even the best
places and people can't prevent everyone from getting hurt once in a while.
It's just inavoidable, to some extent. I think we aren't elitist in the sense
of really keeping someone (anyone!) from participating (as long as they follow
the basic rules, o'course).
Tim also wrote:
> After reading opinions on this, I believe the same. I do think that everyone
> here could stand to be a bit nicer to each other, and a bit more accepting to
> other ideas for how things could be done, to newbies, etc.
Oh, most definitely...
> This will help
> foster better relationships for the community and bring us closer together -
> and hopefully translate into some cool real life experiences.
>
> I for one have met many people through Lugnet in person, and a handful of them
> have become really good friends of mine. I'm greatful for that. I'm also
> greatful that those people get to see me for who I am, rather than for what I
> do. And I'm glad that I get to see them for the same.
I agree. This has happened to me too (whether I've met these friends in RL or
not). I'm *grate*ful for that, too. (Heck, I've met my bf here... ;-)
Now... let's get back to lego!
-Shiri
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Shiri Dori wrote:
>
> > I'm strongly
> > against elitism and alienating newcomers from the place.
>
> As am I. I don't think anyone is really *for* it, but many people might not
> notice they are doing this. That's when it gets to be a problem (or even
> moreso when it is done intentionally-- but I don't think there is someone on
> lugnet that really is).
The good thing is this, as you already said. There is no one who do it
intentionally. No clans here like veterans or lamers. So the problem for
newbies might be having too much expectations. But this should be dealed
by their own selves.
> [..]
> > Many people might even wonder when they see my
> > member number (#4) who is this guy?
>
> LOL, mostly because I know exactly who you are and I think a considerable
> amount of people do. ;-)
I know..:-) And I know you well, too... But who doesn't know you
anyway?..:-)
> [..]
> > Being alienated can be (mostly) related to having expectations which is
> > unreasonably high. This also works for any community, any group of
> > people, either virtual or real.
>
> Right. So we should (all) be just a leeeetle careful when responding to a
> post, without knowing if the person is a newbie or not, or (for example) has
> english as a second language, or is relatively young, etc. (Hehe - I remember
> getting into some scrapes for EACH of those reasons... <grin>)
It's specific to you of course but I really can't see if anyone can
recognize your age if you not uncover it. Do you remember the funny
"Craig for president!" thread?..:-) I already knew you form reading your
messages before this thread, but I never realized that you are on 15 at
that time, and I replied humorously automatically assuming that you are
an adult..:-)
> > Tim Courtney wrote:
> > > I was talking to a friend yesterday about the whole deal - someone who has
> > > slipped away from Lugnet intentionally but unnoticed. That person feels
> > > that the community is elitist, and from that person's perspective I
> > > understand. They feel that when they post here people ignore them, that
> > > they're a good candidate to kill a thread, etc. I don't like it that my
> > > friend has had that experience here.
>
> That is too bad. I hope that friend realizes that no one intended to hurt
> him/her. I doubt anyone really saw him/her as a "good candidate to kill a
> thread"... and it's really sad that someone feels that way. I hope he/she
> comes back, just to try again...
As I already said, this is the individual's problem somehow. You can't
expect an instant recognition, for any group of people, either here or
in real life. Don't expect anything unreasonably high, give nature a
chance, and try to enjoy. Most of my messages go with any replies, too,
although even I'm one of the beta testers of Lugnet, and I already know
many people here even since before Lugnet. And Maggie already showed me
that "no replies" doesn't mean "unnoticed".
> > > And someone slap me if I'm crazy. I'm writing this because I think that
> > > what we saw yesterday was pretty serious, and if the community has anything
> > > to do with it I'd like to see that change. If it was all Matthew and
> > > whatever he was smoking, that's all fine and dandy I s'pose.
>
> <grin>
> <slap>
> j/k, Tim, you're not crazy. But really, over-analyzing ourselves won't get us
> very far. LUGNET is, for the *most* part, a great place. But even the best
> places and people can't prevent everyone from getting hurt once in a while.
> It's just inavoidable, to some extent. I think we aren't elitist in the sense
> of really keeping someone (anyone!) from participating (as long as they follow
> the basic rules, o'course).
Strongly agree. I wish this discussion would have been appeared by
another reason. I'm not very comfortable with the feeling of we are
taking stupid reasoning into account of a sick personality that he made
up as a reason for his sickness.
> Tim also wrote:
> > I for one have met many people through Lugnet in person, and a handful of them
> > have become really good friends of mine. I'm greatful for that. I'm also
> > greatful that those people get to see me for who I am, rather than for what I
> > do. And I'm glad that I get to see them for the same.
>
> I agree. This has happened to me too (whether I've met these friends in RL or
> not). I'm *grate*ful for that, too. (Heck, I've met my bf here... ;-)
Lucky you..:-) I wish my wife would have been an AFOL..:-)
I've met with four person in real life too, although I'm living in a
place thousands of kilometers away from the majority, and of course all
the meetings was very nice experiences. I think you will return back to
your homeland in near future? Turkey is a famous touristic place for
Israeli people AFAIK. Maybe we can meet someday..:-)
Selçuk
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> Everyone is
> free to be famous here, just as everyone is free to participate.
> Elitism, in my mind, is not allowing people to participate who is not a
> famous one.
>
> The point here is, if someone is distinguishable from the crowd by
> anything he/she perform that relates to the founding purpose of the
> community, he/she will be famous than the other participants of the
> community. If you are distinguishable, then naturally you are rare, and
> rare means "not for everyone". People should accept this. I know my
> level of contribution, I know my level of dedication, so I'm happy with
> my level of "popularity". Most of my messages went without any replies,
> but who cares. I'm one of the most veteran members of Lugnet, but I'm
> not so popular around. Many people might even wonder when they see my
> member number (#4) who is this guy?
You might be surprised.... For instance (correct me if I am wrong!), you have a
good sense of humor, you are a cat person, and IIRC it was you who recently
made that utterly charming statement about not knowing enough offensive words
to be able to adequately express yourself in English.
And I'm not a particularly observant person. You can imagine what someone more
observant than I picks up from reading Lugnet posts, even those not written by
the most vocal and conspicuous among us. (Just because a post doesn't get a
reply doesn't mean it hasn't been noticed by many!)
>
> In brief, I believe our community is not an elitist one in its current
> form. And I wish this will continue like that.
Agreed!
Maggie C.
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Maggie Cambron wrote:
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
>
>
> You might be surprised.... For instance (correct me if I am wrong!), you have a
> good sense of humor, you are a cat person, and IIRC it was you who recently
> made that utterly charming statement about not knowing enough offensive words
> to be able to adequately express yourself in English.
:-) Yes, I'm surprised. You are correct at all. Actually, it's also
surprised that this is the first message from me replied by four
individuals..:-)
Selçuk
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> Hi Tim,
>
> Actually, I'm also thinking the subject of "is lugnet elitist?" from
> time to time, and even throw out some of my 0.02 Turkish liras about the
> subject in some cases, both in RTL and here in Lugnet. I'm strongly
> against elitism and alienating newcomers from the place.
This may be semantics and I may be repeating myself, but like I said, I think
a meritocracy (that is, the "rule" of those with merit) based elitist system
is a good basis for a specialised hobby community like LUGNET. I think it IS
semantics rather than fundamental disagreement, because in the part that I
snipped you cite several examples of people who I would consider part of
the "elite" under my definition and you explain why you give them credence..
because they are worthy, that is they merit that credence...
The only one example I would challenge is the example you gave of someone who
spends more than others. That's not a reason for respect, in and of itself.
Spending a lot may be an obsession out of control, or maybe an indulgence if
you have the resources to indulge yourself (why does Jay Leno, the late night
talk show host, have so many antique cars?? because he can). But it's not a
sign of any particular merit. (something I need to remind myself of when I
start bragging, which I do from time to time)
It's now how big your collection is, it's what you do with it. What you
*should* do with it is enjoy it, whatever that means to you.
Me, I enjoy talking about it as well as doing it. I've expounded on
the "facets of the hobby" before, there are a lot of them. Some of us relish
the trading aspect, some the hunt for old sets or bargains in stores, some the
building, some the rendering, some the making of websites, some the creation
of software, some the collating info, some the Festing, some the gaming, some
the chatting here or on IRC or AIM, and on and on.
Ain't it grand?
++Lar
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Larry Pieniazek wrote:
>
>
> The only one example I would challenge is the example you gave of someone who
> spends more than others. That's not a reason for respect, in and of itself.
> Spending a lot may be an obsession out of control, or maybe an indulgence if
> you have the resources to indulge yourself (why does Jay Leno, the late night
> talk show host, have so many antique cars?? because he can). But it's not a
> sign of any particular merit. (something I need to remind myself of when I
> start bragging, which I do from time to time)
I get it. It was not a good example, it was not since I used "popular"
and "respected" interchangeably. But still I think, in some extent,
spending large amounts means somehow dedication to me, so being popular
by it, is not so bad also.
> It's now how big your collection is, it's what you do with it. What you
> *should* do with it is enjoy it, whatever that means to you.
>
> Me, I enjoy talking about it as well as doing it. I've expounded on
> the "facets of the hobby" before, there are a lot of them. Some of us relish
> the trading aspect, some the hunt for old sets or bargains in stores, some the
> building, some the rendering, some the making of websites, some the creation
> of software, some the collating info, some the Festing, some the gaming, some
> the chatting here or on IRC or AIM, and on and on.
>
> Ain't it grand?
Of course. Agreed 100%.
Selçuk
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