Debate : 24857


Off-Topic / Debate / 24857

Not the right way to exit? —Larry Pieniazek

Most of you know I am no fan of our present little war. However: (URL) that seems the wrong way to exit. Those who point out that this action shows that threatening hostages to try to influence countries is now more likely rather than less have a (...) (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) What is the war for? What would constitute a victory? A defeat? (...) Is that to say that it is somehow critically important for the US to win every war? Is it possible that it would be good for the American gestalt psyche for us to lose a (...) (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Koudys

(...) These questions should have already been asked, and were asked, by those that compared this to the similarities to the Vietnam war--but those were brushed aside as 'unpatriotic'. The difference here is that, whereas the US evacuation in '75 (...) (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) How do you figure? The war in Iraq doesn't have anything to do with global terrorism. In Iraq, terrorism is merely a tool to repel the invader. We should either conquer them or get the hell out. Chris (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) We'd lose any remaining credibility if we just annexed them into the US (not to mention the added drawback of being permanently stuck with them until either we or they are all dead, which is really a greater cost than the oil is worth), and we (...) (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Oh, yeah, I don't think we should annex them. But if we're going to hang out we need to stop hemorrhaging. The way to do that is to break their will to resist. (...) Sure, that would be a wild, stunning and amazing victory. Fat chance. (...) I (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Koudys

(...) True, the Iraqi situation doesn't directly have anything to do with global terrorism, but here's an analogy-- You're a police officer Your duty is to protect the innocent civilians. You and your fellow citizens see a bully acting against the (...) (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) At least, that's how you _hope_ it'll look when you choose not to get involved. It seems that half of the Middle East hates us because we did get involved in one situation, and half of the Middle east hates us because we didn't in another, so (...) (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I'm not certain that I follow the analogy, but maybe. So what if they think that? If I do what I believe is "right" each and every time I have to make a decision, they will learn what I have the stomach for. (...) I don't care what terrorists (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Yes. As has been repeatedly been pointed out, by myself and others, going back to the *very beginning* of this newsgroup, we're a major causative factor, if not the primary reason, for Iraq's recent troubles. Some blame lays at the feet of the (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —John Neal

(...) Seriously, whom do you suppose we are fighting in Iraq? You are simply clueless. (...) Again, you have no idea what is going on in Iraq. The Iraqis want us to stay, not as a conqueror, but as a protector. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis (...) (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) They may thank us for getting rid of Hussein, but they don't all want us to stay. The best analogy I've heard of this is shortly after the fall of Baghdad when an Iraqi citizen walked up to a US soldier and said something to the effect of, (...) (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —John Neal

(...) I agree, but it wouldn't be right to leave them before they were ready and able to defend their land and freedom on their own. And what is the rush, anyway? We are a powerful ally, and a valuable resource. The smart would utilize us, not (...) (20 years ago, 20-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) Because the longer we stay there, the more it looks like they're a puppet government controlled by the US. And if they can't stand on their own without having us there to quell rebellion, they effectively are, by virtue of the fact that we'd (...) (20 years ago, 20-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —John Neal

(...) I see your point and I agree. What is interesting, though, is the case of Germany and South Korea who, in essence, used US presence as "free" defense against Communism for about 50 years, so there is a precendent for this type of presence. (...) (20 years ago, 20-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) Ah, but in both cases, the U.S.S.R. was providing direct assistance on the other side of the fence. When one of the two world super-powers is supporting the opposing side of the conflict, there is no shame in asking the other one to help you (...) (20 years ago, 20-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —John Neal

(...) Nuts! I am a huge fan of ST:TNG, ST:DN9, and ST:V, but I never got into B5. I guess I'll never know what you are talking about;-) (...) You are correct; I, however, would content that the vast majority of Iraqis want a free government and that (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) It's never too late to get started. The entire series is out on DVD, along with the two more pivotal MfTV movies. All you'd really need to do is buy or rent the first three seasons, or even just the third season (since that's where this whole (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —John Neal

(...) Hmmm. It might have to take a number. I just got season 3 of ST:V, and I have yet to buy any TNGs or DS9s:-p (...) We are a bitterly divided country ideologically speaking. This upcoming election will be a harbinger of our next decade. I (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) I suggest "1". (...) While I enjoyed TNG and I loved DS9, B5 just seemed less foofy from the start. Instead of shields they have a "defense grid". It consists of BFGs. One of them in particular looks like its barrel is at least large enough (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Dave Schuler

(...) Pardon? A vote for Kerry is an encouragement to the terrorists? Are you on the GOP's payroll? One could as easily suggest that the terrorists, recognizing that a fanatical, crusading zealot is out of the driver's seat, might pause to see how a (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) On the basis that if an incumbent president is voted out of office it generally means a dissatisfaction with his policies with no means of offering distinction as to which specific policies were the cause, yes. Clinton was comparatively soft (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Dave Schuler

(...) Three factors have always prevented me from enjoying the series. First, I can't stand most of the cast (Flounder and Tron and the woman from (URL) The Hidden,> et all). Second, I really really really don't like the CGI graphics, which to me (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) How much of it did you watch? I'll admit that Bruce Boxleitner's portrayal of Sheriden was pretty cheesy coming out of the gate, but one of JMS's commentary tracks reveals that he specifically requested it be that way for the first few eps of (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Dan Boger

(...) IIRC, they did not - they flew by in complete silence, unless you were "listening" to the inside of the pilot's helmet. (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) There's an argument to be made for both sides. Watching the space battle scenes in Ep 1.1, some scenes show shots being fired in silence, but in the space battle scenes of Ep 1.13, they seem to take a few liberties for cinematic effect. When (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Dave Schuler

(...) Admittedly, not much. I caught bits of episodes here and there (which, I grant, is not the best way to get one's teeth into a longterm space opera). I saw a good bit of the pilot, one episode with Checkov, and a chunk of the finale. (...) I (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) Heh. Even hard-core fans are amazed at the comparatively low technical quality and such of the premiere movie after having watched the full series, but to be fair, I believe it had an even lower budget than the individual episodes, and that (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Koudys

(...) "A Private Little War" from ST:TOS where the Klingons were arming one side, and Kirk had to arm the otehr side to keep the fight 'even'. Kinda like the Vorlons and Shadows... <snip> (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —John Neal

(...) Nuts again. While I acknowledge ST:TOS as the mother of them all, and I watched it a little as a kid, it is too cheesy for my taste now. Ever since the third season of ST:TNG, however, they have all been gold. BUT, the jury is still out on (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) I didn't mind the lack of those functions, as the holodeck stories often tended to be a bit too farfetched (just how many times can Starfleet-owned holodecks run rampant and threaten to kill members of their respective crews before they figure (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —John Neal

(...) "69" LOL Hadn't heard that one before:-) JOHN (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) Oh, it's a fairly old nickname, dating back to the days when ST:V was still in original episodes (possibly even to her first year on the show). I mean, think about it. She's a Borg. She eschews all of the "silly" trappings of human life in (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Keep on Trekkin' (was: The Incredibly Mutating Thread) —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Herbertian Stillsuit? All wastes are routed to the shoulder pads on men and breast pads on women for eventual recycling. This explains how the fatter the actor got the bigger the shoulder pads got (eat more, excrete more, bigger shoulders to (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Keep on Trekkin' (was: The Incredibly Mutating Thread) —David Laswell

(...) Ha! Hadn't thought of that. That would pretty much limit you to only having to undress for medical reasons (surgery, pregnancy, growth, weight change, etc.) and "extracurricular activities" (since, presumedly, it should even be able to recycle (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) You better hurry and make up your mind about ST:E since this is undoubtedly the last season - the only reason they are limping through it is to get to the magical 100 episodes for marketing the re-runs. -->Bruce<-- (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) Really? That's kinda funny, given the external circumstances. Stargate recently started franchising, there are rumors that another B5 spinoff is in the works, and after the whole debate of whether ST or B5 was superior or which show stole (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) I'm not sure how any of that relates to ST:E only (most likely) lasting four seasons (Paramount cut their per episode charges by something like half just so it would get picked up for a forth season). However, yes, I like being able to watch a (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) Oh, it's the whole thing with how networks were convinced for so long that the only way a sci-fi show could survive is if it has the Star Trek name attached to it, but then here we are where the name has become something of a pariah, and other (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —John Neal

(...) As far as you know;-) S P O I L E R-> I forget which season it is (the last perhaps?), but Seska makes one last return in a totally implausible but totally enjoyable episode:-) (...) I will say that some of the episodes were very enjoyable; (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) Oh, I watched the entire series twice through in the course of about a year (I missed a few eps the first time around, but I think I caught them all the second run through). Besides, she's a Cardassian, not a Kazon (and after the ad they ran, (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Ross Crawford

(...) Awww come on, John, the American Press don't hate the prez, they love him! He gives them so many ideas for newspaper-selling stories! In fact most recent presidents seem to have the same effect on the press. ROSCO (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —John Neal

(...) Yes, wouldn't it be refreshing if the press cared more about the truth and less about pushing personal political predilections. JOHN (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Chris Phillips

(...) Yes, wouldn't it be refreshing if the President cared more about the truth and less about pushing personal political predilictions? If the press cared about the truth, they would have been calling for an independent prosecutor to look into the (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I thought it was Jackson. Didn't he start the "to the victor go the spoils" politics in the US? Chris (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Chris Phillips

(...) Well, let's see... Jackson didn't resort to legal action to get himself installed as president against the will of the people. Jackson didn't spend $100M on ineffective negative campaigning against his opponent instead of actually talking (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Would that be the Los Angeles Times and Orange County Register which both supported his invasion of Iraq? Sounds to me like The Conservative Press is kissing his backside, not kicking it. -->Bruce<-- (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Look John, just because you're a sycophantic bushie fan-boy who'll believe any lie they tell us against all reason and evidence, don't expect the rest of us to fall for their big lies. It is frankly amazing that you expect the rest of us to (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Scott Arthur

(...) Would a quick victory after (say) 2 months of conflict have emboldened Bush? Scott A (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I liked Dave K's response here, so this is just embellishment. As long as we bill ourselves as the world's policeman it is. As soon as cops can't enforce, they lose their power. That's where we are now. But that's the wrong reason. We should (...) (20 years ago, 20-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) Every wrong? No more than the next guy, which is to say that we shouldn't just ignore them if we have the power to coerce them to go away, and we shouldn't be unwilling to step up and correct them by force if it's unconscionable not to do so. (...) (20 years ago, 20-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) This is the sound of complete agreement. And as an example, I think US military should be in Sudan, though it's a little late. Chris (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Scott Arthur

(...) What about when the self appointed "cops" start {breaking} the law? (...) One can not always choose which wars we want. The UK went to war with Nazi Germany knowing there was a chance we'd loose. Palestinians attack the IDF knowing they will (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —David Laswell

(...) "Seems"? Is that like saying that water "seems" wet? (...) This is exactly the reason why many powerful nations have laws specifically prohibiting themselves from negotiating with terrorists. It gives the politicians a legal and quasi-moral (...) (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) No, it's saying I have an opinion about it and that's what it is, and despite it being *my* opinion, I'm not claiming infallability about it merely because I stated it. Sorry if that phrasing caused confusion. Hope that helps. (20 years ago, 20-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Not the right way to exit? —Scott Arthur

(...) The Philippines were leaving anyway; the kidnapping just hastened things a little. They may well have been part of Bush’s Coalition of the Coerced; but I expect their ~50 troops where nothing but a token. (...) I agree, but I expect the amount (...) (20 years ago, 19-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)