Subject:
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Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore"
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 20 Apr 2003 04:20:07 GMT
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Viewed:
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2354 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Pedro Silva writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Pedro Silva writes:
> > >
> > > > (To John: a significant number of Muslims has lived in Europe for centuries,
> > > > notably in the Balkans. They are not Arabs, and they have little to none
> > > > political expression as a lobby in Western Europe. So in fact when you're
> > > > referring to Muslims in WE, you are indeed confusing them with the Arab
> > > > immigration - and that is dangerously close to racial profiling. I will
> > > > however admit this to be unintentional)
> > > >
> > > > > > That as Europe becomes more and more influenced politically by Muslims, the
> > > > > > rift between the US and Europe will only widen. The day is coming when
> > > > > > modern, secular European nations are going to find themselves dominated by
> > > > > > indigenous Muslims who follow a religion that has yet to pass through
> > > > > > enlightenment.
> > > >
> > > > ("Dominated"???)
> > >
> > > To answer your question above, I was referring, as I believe the author of the
> > > article was as well, to Arab immigration and their direct descendants post WWII.
> >
> > So doesn't that make your own distinction between "Muslim" and "Arab" a bit
> > shakier? You claimed to be referring to Muslims, and that Arab was a
> > race-related term.
> >
> > > When I said "dominated", I meant in the context of numbers. The Muslim
> > > population continues to grow throughout Europe as the European population
> > > continues to slide. At some point in the not-too-distant future, the Muslim
> > > population will be in the majority in terms of a voting lobby.
> >
> > (and exactly what do you propose to do about it???)
>
> lol Absolutely nothing-- it's not really my problem! I just found the
> statistics interesting and am just wondering how *Europe* will react.
Should it react at all?
Are we in trouble? If so, exactly what kind of trouble?
> > Don't you think it's a bit awkward to speak of "arabizing" Europe, when from
> > a rough total of 450 million European Citizens (1), only some 15 million are
> > of Arab origin? And knowing that, in the overall context, also the numbers
> > of Hindus or Chinese are increasing significantly? Wasn't that very same
> > multiculturalism/tolerance that made America so great?
>
> Again, I don't want to speak about *Arabs*, unless we are talking about those
> Arabs who are radicalized Muslims.
Read some paragraphs above: you stated *clearly* that you were referring to
Arabs, as you supposed that the author was too.
> You will not find much tolerance in the US
> for such ilk.
Of course not. You won't find much support for radicals here as well; the
difference is here we don't like *any* sort of radicals, if you get my drift
(if not, remember the Mayflower :-)
> America became great because of *mutual* respect of different
> cultures-- that is a concept that is non-existent to the radical Muslim.
The same being valid towards the radical christian. I feel my rights as a
non-believer are infringed everytime I read a dollar bill!
Also, which one is better? To have a number of different cultures coexisting
in one nation, or mixing them up in one single culture?
(Compare USA and Brazil for instance - both large countries with vast
numbers of migrants from very different origins)
> > Do you realize that the very same argument the author uses towards Arabs was
> > used two generations ago regarding Jews?
>
> I don't hear the author speaking of a "master race" and all of that.
Of course not. That would be a giveaway!
But you do read his complains about the "invasion" from North Africa...
> A major
> difference here is the radical element that is a part of the Muslim package.
> The Jews never presented a physical threat to their respective countries as the
> radicalized factions of Islam do.
True. But radical Islam is fairly recent as a mass phenomena - it only
gained such expression as a consequence of Israel's birth as a sovereign state.
Would you claim that *in present* there are no radical jews as well? And
that if there were no Israel, *they* would be fighting for a country of
their own using all available means?
> > Also, are you aware of whom is using that argument *in* Europe right now?
>
> Not especially.
Only a couple hours ago there was this debate in TV5 (french spoken) about
arab religious signs in schools - it's a big issue over there, and it's in
fact a point where radicals can gain a battle if not faced by the *atheists*
(strangely enough, the christians have discretely sided with the Muslims on
this subject).
So, I was listening to some of the views presented, and I noticed the only
smiling face on the table: the Front Nationale representative... of course
he gets amused to see how the french have to rise against chadors in
schools, effectively creating a climate of distrust between the "100%
french" and the Arabs. It's his gain, sponsored by any government that might
hold office!
Coincidentally, Jean-Marie Le Pen was re-elected (for the zilionth time) the
chairman of FN last night. His record in WW2 is "impecable", not to mention
his rhetoric since the eighties - he denies the Holocaust, for instance.
> > Sure, I noticed a very strong Arab presence in France (there is no doubt
> > about that). I also realized that the majority of the unemployed youngsters
> > (or sub-employed) are of Arab origin. Would that be a possible explanation
> > for the degree of disenfranchising they experience in a society that still
> > regards them as foreigners? It's so easy to point out the Arabs as the
> > causers of the unrest in the french "banlieues"... but who has put them in
> > those ghettos in the first place? Wouldn't they be people like the man who
> > wrote this article?
>
> All I wanted to point out was that the threat of Islamic extremists isn't only
> the US's problem-- it is going to be on Europe's doorstep soon.
But in a much different fashion, that I'm sure you'll agree. Here they feel
they can actually get support if they don't step over the line... so they won't.
> We in the US
> have set a course as to how we intent to address this threat.
Boom?
Bang?
Bzzzzzt?
Arrest without charge?
Brainwash?
What way is that?
> All I see is
> Europe opposing us in our fight instead of joining forces with us. The sooner
> they address the issue the better for their own sake.
As much as I'd love that simplistic, "close the borders, jail the SoBs" way
of thinking, I won't follow it. It goes against what Europe represents in
the post-WW2.
Plus, we have the strong suspicion this is a zealots' war, and Bush ain't
helping to change that thought every single time he says "God bless
America". Why should we fight his crusade?
Of course we do not like terrorists - and rest assured they won't find safe
ground in Europe. But be especially careful of what you consider a
terrorist, or you may lose this automatic support you still enjoy: there is
a difference between a terrorist and a dictator.
People are already starting to joke about the War on Terror as the best of
all pretexts - and if Afghanistan was easy to support, and Iraq was merely
criticized on the way the matter was conducted, others may not find *any*
support in Europe if presented as part of the said war. We expect at least
new lies, if new truths can't be argued.
> Muslims in France may be peaceful, but if there is growing unrest among them,
> then they are ripe for radicalization.
Exactly. See the Boxer rebellion, 1900, in China - it's the best example I
can remember.
But how do you make the radicals' appeal less interesting to the
disenfranchised with too much free time? Do you have any flawless idea?
Pedro
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore"
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| (...) lol Absolutely nothing-- it's not really my problem! I just found the statistics interesting and am just wondering how *Europe* will react. (...) Again, I don't want to speak about *Arabs*, unless we are talking about those Arabs who are (...) (24 years ago, 20-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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