Subject:
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Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:41:33 GMT
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Viewed:
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769 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bill Farkas writes:
> <snipped your reply to Richard>
>
> Regardless, we can all agree that killing the innocent for the sins of the
> leadership is wrong.
I don't think anyone is saying we should kill innocents. Official statements
refer to "those responsible". However, regrettably some collateral damage is
unavoidable.
As a side note: when did this notion of "killing the innocent" in war arise?
Wasn't carpet bombing extensive in WWII? It seems like back then they just
bombarded an entire country. After all, doesn't a nation's army come from
its citizenry; and doesn't that make them fair game? Food for thought, I'm
not making any assertions here.
>
> To Bill: My comments in other posts regarding this matter are in no way an
> attempt to justify the attack. Let that be clear. I do think we must address
> the factual roots of this hatred and why it was manifested against our nation.
> And "seeking to understand," if you were refering to my comments elsewhere,
> should not be mischaracterized as a plea to coddle or condone criminal acts.
> Seeking to understand can also mean seeking to prevent.
True. But I think it is more simplistic than many are making it. They (the
attackers) have said that it was done because we support Israel.
>
> Regarding your personal appraisal of the Palestinians and Israel, I cannot
> see how it can be denied that Israel is not the invader, occupier and
> oppressor. Your half of the story represents just that--half. Perhaps you
> are unaware of the documented and admitted Israeli massacres against
> countless Palestinians (or Arabs if your prefer) as well as massacres in
> Lebanon; perhaps you are unaware of the thousands of crippled Arabs as a
> result of Israeli mines, cluster bombs, napalm, missles and assorted
> weapons; perhaps you are unaware of the Zionist conceit that the Holy Land
> is exclusively the home of the Jews; and perhaps you are unaware that Arabs
> are Jews, Christians and Moslems alike.
I'm aware of all those things. I lived there for a year and a half before,
during and after the Gulf War (as a participant). I could also share
horrible stories of Palestinian atrocities that I have personally witnessed.
In most cases, however, Israel's actions are in self defense. They do not
sit back and devise plans to initiate attacks on Arab countries or
Palestinians in order to eradicate them. The opposition cannot say the same.
History shows that the many conflicts (wars) in that area were initiated by
Arab aggressors.
I think it IS deniable that Israel is the invader, occupier and oppressor.
Don't forget that the only reason they returned to "Palestine" was because
of the UN resolution in '47. They were returning to a land that was
historically theirs and that had been returned to them by a world tribunal.
They were not the aggressor. I respect the fact that the Arab people
disagreed with that determination and fought to retain the land - but the
fact is that they got their butts handed to them. And, after many further
attempts to regain the land, they repeatedly had their butts handed to
them. Reality is sometimes harsh. Israel is there and needs to be dealt
with. Israel is willing to co-exist, the Palestinians are not. Israel does
occupy the land, but not in the sense you imply. They live there. The
military presence is there to defend its people from never ending bombings
and stabbings, etc. It is Israel that is willing to concede land that it
legitimately took from invading forces. Israel gave them autonomy in the
Palestinian Authority. They were not content with that. Israel offered to
give them more land than they asked for, they refused it. Israel lives in a
land that was legally given to them. Should Israel sit by as PLO thugs bomb
and kill its citizens? The so-called "massacres" you mention above were not
against innocents - they were in response to or to prevent terrorist attacks.
My remarks are not blanket statements about all people of Arabic descent. I
refer only those characterized by the actions I mentioned.
>
> To mischaracterize hatred as solely from the Arabs is to ignore the facts.
> Regarding your appraisal of the Arab children playing at "killing Jews," is
> it any different than certain video games in America portraying Arabs as
> villians? Furthermore, is it any better than graphically violent video
> "games" in which we allow our children to manipulate video characters to
> kick, punch, stab, shoot or blow up other characters?
I agree, I wrote about this in a previous debate:
http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=9413
> Every culture is quite possibly guilty of something, let's at least be >forthright and honest about it.
Absolutely. Which is why I take issue with others who have said that U.S.
policy worldwide is responsible for these attacks. As leader of the free
world, why is it so wrong for us to act in self interest? We have done what
we thought to be right at any given point in time given the complex
circumstances. We supported Iraq because at the time Iran was a threat and
Iraq was not. We supported bin Laden because at the time Russia was a threat
and bin Laden was not. We are then portrayed as traitors for later going
after them. What about them? They used us as well. They received money,
weapons and training and then turn around and use it against us - why are
they not the traitors? International relations are very complex - there are
no easy choices. But we did what we thought was right given what we knew. No
country has a perfect record on foreign affairs. But I'd stack ours against
any other, hands down.
Bill
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