Subject:
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Re: IP ( was Re: LP POINT 1
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 6 Dec 2000 22:10:10 GMT
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Viewed:
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4142 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > > > > As much as you want?
> > > > >
> > > > > I have had free education - pre-school to PhD.
> > > >
> > > > What if you wanted more education? And how did you afford to eat and stay • out
> > > > of the rain while pursuing your free education.
> > >
> > > The state paid my to be a student. Not very much, but enough to mean I could
> > > concentre of my studies - rather than flipping burgers.
> >
> > Do they do that for everyone or just a few?
>
> Everyone.
Wow. Why isn't everyone a student? I've been searching for an angle to allow
me to go back to college and just stay there. Being a professor seems pretty
good, but I'd rather just be a student forever.
> > If you wanted more education would
> > it still be free and would they still pay your survival fees?
>
> If I was from a low income background it would be free. Other wise, I'd have
> to pay a notioanl amount towards my degree (phd & school education would
> still be free).
Nifty! (But not Lar's kind of nifty, I supose.)
> > What if you
> > wanted to study abroad?
>
> Free inside the EU.
Do you happen to know what it takes for me to become a citizen of the UK?
> > > > > I suppose you'd call it "Welfare".
> > > >
> > > > Meaning free beer and smokes?
> > >
> > > Nope. How persuasive, you stigmatise the vast majority of those of welfare
> > > who are between jobs, can not work because they are unable to work in some
> > > way, children who are victims of poor parenting with a tiny majority of
> > > claimants.
> >
> > Show me the numbers. The only people that I have personally known who were
> > receiving aid of this type fell into two categories.
>
> You've got the wrong kind of friends.
I think it is clear from my account, that they were not my friends. At the
time I had friends. Most of them went to college and are now productive.
> > Hundreds of them engaged in this game just in the little market where I • worked
> > in St. Louis County, Missouri. How many in all of St. Louis County? How • many
> > in the US. We are being milked. And we are fools for allowing it.
>
> Most of this may be due to the kind of attitude you have. It makes them feel
> outside society - so they do not mind robbing it.
How could _my_ attitude have possibly disenfranchised them? I guess you
probably mean the general attitude of the US? In the UK are people living on
the dole really not looked down on? If that's so, then I am at a loss as to
how we could have such different cultural attitudes when we diverged so
recently and stayed so closely in touch.
> > Just because you say something, doesn't make it so. First, people who enlist
> > in the service of the nation have an employment contract that includes a
> > lifetime of poor quality health benefits. Also, most people in the service
> > learn skills that allow them to be productive members of society. And • finally,
> > I don't have the profound respect for people who go to war that some seem to
> > think I just have, just because they went to war. If they went to a bad war,
> > then they may be bad people.
>
> You sound bitter.
A) So what? I mean, what is your goal with such a statement?
B) I could see you claiming that I sound bitter about welfare (thought I'm not
exactly) but what did I say about veterans that made you think I was bitter
about them?
C) Whatever you interpret as bitter, I think could more appropriately be called
anger. I'm angry that there is too much inertia to improve the system in
meaningful ways.
> > > Is there a point to this?
> >
> > That you are willing to force other people to comply with an arbitrary
> > morality.
You didn't feel the need to comment on this, but I thought I'd highlight it for
clarity. Did you not comment because you wanted us to assume that this is
correct?
> > > Is there a point to this? If so, make it.
> >
> > I made the mistake of thinking that the point was self-evident. Since
> > prostitution doesn't hurt people, it is morally wrong to make it illegal.
> > Control of people is bad.
Again, you chose not to refute this. Are you agreeing with my point or what?
> > Why not just tell us that you think the majority is divinely
> > infallible and thus we should all comply with its dictates regardless of how
> > harmful? If that's what you believe, then have the spine to tell us and we
> > can all move on.
>
> I don't believe that.
Will you please elaborate on what bounds the majorty should have in your
opinion?
> > If you can't show me a victim, then there is none. Feel free to show me the
> > victims of polygamy, prostitution, and recreational drug use.
>
> Prostitution:
> U.S. Grapples With Modern-Day Slavery
> 8/31/00 - CNN
> U.S. officials estimate that 50,000 people from Latin America, Eastern
> Europe and Asia are trafficked into the United States annually by organized
> crime gangs. Officials say half of them are women and girls -- some barely
> into their teens -- who are forced into prostitution.
Very nicely done. I suspect that since there seem to be bad people in the
world, that some of these 50,000 are actually slaves. And that ought to be
illegal. But it has nothing to do with prostitution, except that it's the
economic justification to the bad guys for committing their crimes.
But some of the 50,000 'slaves' are almost certianly just women who were
willing to prostitute in the US as the cost of coming to the US. As such, they
should be allowed to ply their wares.
Presumably it would be easy for you to find similar instances of drugs being a
problem. And in virtually all cases, I can show you how some other
victimization is really the crime, not the drugs. So ignoring the issue of
recreational drug use, can you show me any real or hypothetical victims of
polygamy?
Chris
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: IP ( was Re: LP POINT 1
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| (...) Everyone. (...) If I was from a low income background it would be free. Other wise, I'd have to pay a notioanl amount towards my degree (phd & school education would still be free). (...) Free inside the EU. (...) Understament. Americans do (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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