 | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Thomas Main
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| | | (...) I was hoping not to engage Larry in this debate because I believe my viewpoints are valid even though I might not be able to defend them as aptly as Larry can defend his. I am not a good debater and Larry, as I think we all know, is a (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | (...) Please please please, don't anyone remove that key syllable, thank you. The new Victoria's Secret catalog just came, you'll have to excuse me while I go study it closely. (1) (...) I certainly understand the first quoted statement you make in (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Thomas Main
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| | | | | | | (...) <snip> (...) <snip> (...) I stated this more or less to get your blood boiling. I believe people in need ought to be helped. I believe there are many people in need of health insurance in this country and that they ought to be helped by our (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) It worked. (...) Feel free to act on that belief. There are many worthy charities out there. You mentioned one of my favorites, Habitat for Humanity. We've been supporting them for an awfully long time. (...) That's where you go too far. (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Jeff Stembel
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Admirable quality, I wish more humans felt this way. People *should* feel this way, as it is good for all. (...) Why? Because he feels the government should try to take care of the people it was created to protect and serve? I think you, (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) OK, OK, I give in. I'll feel compassion for those people in the US that for reasons beyond their control can't afford to take care of themselves. All 2 of them. That was a flippant remark, but it makes a point. If you want my help, you have to (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) This smacks of this new age crap I hear about how morals are relative and everyone is entitled to their own morals, no matter how warped, and nobody else should condemn them. That's bullshit. Lemme give you an example of how you determine what (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Simon Denscombe
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| | | | | | | | (...) In all fairness Communism is defendable from first principles yet is always said to be bad. I agree with the ideal of communism but not Marxism. In an ideal communism state there is no tax, no unemployment. I've missed out on most of this (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) In all fairness Communism is INdefensible from first principles, if you accept the rights based principle that people have the right to maximum freedom, or the utilitarian principle that we should strive for the system that produces the (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | (...) There you go again, mixing theory with practice. In _theory_, someone/some committee _with all the information_ making decisions can do better (as measured by the utilitarian principle) than the free market. Much in the same way that in (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) No. Nice try though. (...) So you're conceding the rights based argument, then? Good. (...) No. In THEORY it's impossible for any finite committee to outperform (that is, out allocate) the market, unless they have more information than the (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | (...) Says who? The mere fact that I choose to make a post focusing on one side of the argument does not mean I concede the other. Far from it. The trouble is, we both start from opposite views of what is a right and what is not, and therefore, (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Ed Jones
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| | | | | | (...) I have a huge problem with this inane argument. Larry is avoiding the basic issue and circumventing it with property gibberish. It is simply this - all Doctors take a Hypocratic oath - that they will provide medical service irregardless of the (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | (...) Have you read Larry's response to my question about the ideals of Libertarianism? Your last comment is a gross mischaracterization of Larry's position. If you read one of his other responses, you will even see that he does in fact support (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | (...) Which basic issue is he circumventing? I thought the basic issue was determining who should pay for Random Joe's medical care. Larry thinks Random Joe should and Thomas thinks that Larry should. (...) Hippocrates developed the oath, but I (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Thomas Main
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| | | | | | | | "Christopher L. Weeks" wrote: <snip> (...) OK, the first person who knows this song wins the debate: "...i've been called a communist because i'm left-handed/that's the hand to use.../well, nevermind." other lines (if you need a hint): "i've been (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) I have a huge problem with the characterisation of my cogent and lucid statements (:-))as inane, or gibberish. Perhaps to someone who'd rather not honor property rights and doesn't understand why property rights matter, they're gibberish. But (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | Man, Larry, I go away for a few days, and this explodes on my e-mail. :) Oh, and I agree with Larry 100%, even if I am a Republican (Some moral differences with the Libertarians, but nothing us "right-wingers" can't work out!). By the way, not all (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Ed Jones
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| | | | | | | (...) OK, you state "people do not have a RIGHT to free goods." I am simplying stating that some people, through no fault of their own, do not have the ability to pay for those goods but, in the name of humanity, should "have a RIGHT to free goods". (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I think that in a perfect liberatopia, all three of these people would have no problem getting the care they need, through charity. Person A may still be helped by some kind of unemployment coverage. Person B's family should also invest in a (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Ed Jones
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) So you are saying that these people have the right to the care that they need. Isn't charity the giving of free goods? Are you saying that these people have a right to free goods? (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) No, I think he's saying that, in a perfect libertopia, other people who help these people of their own free will. That does not imply that ABC have rights to those goods. (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) No. (...) Yes and no. (...) No. There is no right to charity. A charity may feel a moral obligation to help, but that moral obligation is something between them and their benefactors. A charity will set conditions under which it provides goods (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Frank Filz wrote in message <377A8667.334E@minds...ng.com>... (...) need. (...) No, he did not say that. Its funny how people who like to take other people's property also like to take other people's words and misuse them. (...) Frank is catching on (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | John DiRienzo wrote in message ... (...) Are you commenting on my words or Ed's here? (...) My "yes and no" was that in one sense, charity is the giving of goods without expecting something in return (shorthand "free goods"), but it is also a "no" (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) He didn't say a right; he said they would _probably_ receive charity. (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) It should also be said that charity doesn't automatically mean "free" goods. Habitat for Humanity is very definitely a charity, but they don't give away houses. They ask their benneficiaries to help build the house and in general to show (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Jeff Stembel
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Oh, come on!! You CANNOT have a "perfect" society with more than a small number of people!! It is imposible! No matter what, there will be some that take advantage of it. Why do you think Communism failed? Any type of society that relies on (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Ignoring the minimum wage issue, who cares if the only jobs available are minimum wage? I've worked for varying amounts in my life. If you work for 35 years making $30k per year (sorry, that should probably be $40-50k/year if we're talking a (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Jeff Stembel
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) If he gets hit by a truck (this is what the original post was about), he'd be refused medical attention because he has no benefits and can't afford it on his own. Through no fault of his own, society and the government have just condemned him (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I think the problem here is that you are looking at the libertarian perspective piecemeal. As I understand it from what Larry has said is that since everything is connected, a truly (or at least much more than the one we have now) free market (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Lost a high-paying job and had to take a much lower paying job, yes. Shit happens. I made the best of the situation and moved on. Everyone else can too. (...) Saying "he lost his job and the only jobs available were minimum wage jobs so he (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Wow, Mike Stanley and I agree on something! That is amazing! (J/K Mike. You made some great points!) I happen to work two jobs to pay off my student loans. Scott Sanburn (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —John Cromer
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Well, we really have a quite a little mutual admiration society going here, don't we. All this macho, I've-got- 10-jobs back-slapping is touching, but let me offer a little unsolicited advice: Don't get sick, especially with a long-term, chronic (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Somebody just watched "The Trouble with Tribbles"! --Todd (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —John Cromer
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Todd Lehman writes: [...] (...) OUCH! You are *too* much. John C (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Thanks for the advice...I'll try not to. (...) One of my roommates in college grew up in a Utah sheep-farming family. He tells a quaint little annecdote like yours. His grandfather got old (it happens to all of us) and stopped working on the (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —John Cromer
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: [...] (...) Agreed. Unfortunately, with progressively debilitating diseases, the brain is often the first thing to go, and can be gone before you know what's happened or have a chance to do (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | John Cromer wrote in message ... (...) Thanks for pointing this out. You are right, our general voting public (clear-headed Americans) would rather vote for assholes that lie and say they will make things better than for people who could actually (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) his (...) I think that you're ignoring (as I understand it) a basic tenate of Libertarianism. Where does the fault lie? If this person has no savings, is it his own fault, or circumstances beyond his control? More to the immediate, who's fault (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | James Brown <galliard@shades-of-night.com> wrote: Not really responding to what James wrote, although I think it made sense. Just jumping in again. Brought up Larry's (and what I assume are the LP's) opinions on the government health care thing (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) I hate to bring up the old religion thing, but it is relevant. One of the greatest difficulties that the average westerner has in accepting the Libertarian idea that people are basically good, is that one of (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I agree. I'd also point out that the person who was most adamant about thinking it is "human nature" to be selfish and not give, no matter how much you do or do not have taken from you by the government was the person who somewhat proudly (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) This point is valid. There is no perfect society and Libertarianism does not claim to be able to achieve one. It merely claims to be able to make things better. (...) Answer this question yourself, please. I know why it failed. I suspect you (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | Your little moral problems are a sucker's trap, because you haven't stated enough assumptions and preconditions, so whatever I say will be twisted around. But hey, look up sucker in the dictionary... see that picture? that's me. (...) Why? No one (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | (...) His savings are gone so soon? What did A do for 35 years? I have only been actively saving for a short while now and I could last a few months without my job, minimum. Inside of a year I'll be able to last a lot longer. Why would A have so (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) I hear ya brother Larry. (...) No. Never. But, they should have a RIGHT to earn goods. (...) Others have hashed this one out pretty well, but basically, f@*k him. 35 years is a long time to not sock something away for the future. One of my (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | (...) Um....He does. By your own admission previously, you do allow him to extort money out of you for his pet projects. ('He' refers to Ed, the government, and communists in general.) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | (...) No kidding? Man, you're weird. (...) And? Nothing wroing with ad hominem attacks, if you can support them properly with your arguments. If they can't, it's just more ammunition to use against them. Win/win situation, really.. Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | (...) That, I suppose, is the problem with the argument that those who deserve will get medical care through charity. You have too much faith in humanity. Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) No, you have too little. I give more by proportion because I think about what it means a bit more. Change society to encourage the behaviours you want and you won't be relying on those like me who have indomitable will and faith in goodness, (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | (...) I take it you mean no taxes at all anymore, so your income would rise? More like profits would go up for business, IMHO, but that aside. (...) For one thing, abolishing all taxes and what gets paid by it wouldn't triple my income, it would (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | (...) I don't have time to get into this fully, but I agree more with Larry than Thomas, I'm afraid. What I do have time to do, though, is assert that "the government" most certainly does NOT spend the money it gets for the welfare of the people. (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Right. Bread and Circuses are not put on to benefit the participants, but rather to retain power. (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —John DiRienzo
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| | | | Thomas Main wrote in message <3779144D.DC72D75@ap...te.edu>... (...) Ah, just what the doctor ordered - good, teenage humor. When you can't argue, just hit 'em below the belt. Thomas, I don't know you very well, but I have now read a couple posts of (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Thomas Main
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| | | | John DiRienzo wrote: Although I think this is somewhat of a dead horse issue and I'm wayyyy to tired to be writing this...John addressed me personally, so I thought I should respond... (...) <snip> (...) Just trying to diffuse a tense situation with (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | (...) This is something I'm curious about. In these European countries that have this utopia of "free" healthcare I would assume it is paid for with taxes, right? I've also heard that in such places those who have the means most definitely do choose (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) Healthcare is definitely the toughest nut to crack here. The problem is that essentially for anyone in the world, there is a medical condition which would take more resources to treat than they themselves own (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) The one that will get Bill Gates is the one we can't cure yet. Same as what got Princess Diana. We currently cannot save people that get crushed to 1/2 their volume and aren't extricated and gotten to the hospital that very instant. It did not (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Let me forestall a pounce, this is a typo. The second "me" should say "my family after I am gone" (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | Larry Pieniazek wrote in message <377E75DD.377FC107@v...er.net>... (...) One thing that does worry me a bit is if our capability to identify genetic markers for those diseases which are genetic outstrips our ability to improve care for them knowing (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Richard Dee
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| | | | | | | | On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:43:09 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) It is an interesting measure of "humanity." How much do we make the sick, and their families, suffer, in order that we expend vast resources in order to (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Richard Dee
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| | | | | | On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:42:49 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) It certainly isn't a "utopia," at least in the UK. It is bureaucratic, mismanaged, and all health care is expensive, after all. New drugs cost a fortune, and (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) I'm glad John's here but I do want to point out that I was perfectly fine with this particular one... I riffed on it quite happily. In general I tend to pounce on ad hominems but this wasn't one. (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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