 | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Dave Schuler
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| | | (...) Greg: That is the type of comment that frequently--and not always incorrectly--elicits charges of bigotry or at least misguided nationalism. Obviously, I have no idea of the true nature of your real-world feelings, but the tenor of your (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | (...) I agree with the whole point of your note, Dave. But I'm wondering if you really disagree with the Greg's implied stance about the role of the US staving off Germany during WWII. I don't really get off on the US' role in the war, but my (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) I have to confess that my WWII knowledge is somewhat less than exhaustive. However, while I don't deny the importance of the US role, it's tricky to say (although Greg has now clarified that he was being sarcastic) that the US "saved" Europe, (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) Russia and Germany were engaged in the greatest land battle in the history of the planet. The scope and devastation of it was truly appalling - it's what ground Germany up. Of course, neither of those two sides was out to "save" Europe, and (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) Yeah, I'm not a big Stalin fan in any case, but it seems likely that goodly chunk of my ancestry was wiped out by his antics in the Ukraine. I hoped the ;^) would be a tip off, but, balancing that against my admission of ignorance, I can see (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Chris Leach
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| | | | | | | | (...) Keep this in mind....if Hitler had let his generals run the war they would have won it.They did not want to fight the U.S. OR the U.S.S.R. Also without Hitlers interference the jet plane would have been put into production alot sooner and (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | | | (...) General Winter, the finest leader of the Russian Army! Well, him and that Zhukov chap. ;) (...) If Hitler's generals had run the war, Hitler couldn't have been Hitler. What happened was as much doctrine as it was individuals--it's like any (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Chris Leach
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| | | | | | | | (...) LFB Germany was working on the 262 eaaly in the war ..then Hitler told them i want a bomber which delayed work on the fighter(and the fixing of problems)this fact has been stated many times in documentaries that i seen on THC/A&E. (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | | | (...) I trust the Hitler Channel about as far as I can throw it. ;) This is the same organization that claimed the Goeben and Breslau were battleships, when in fact neither was. They rarely dig far beneath the surface because they have to generalize (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Mladen Pejic
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| | | | | | (...) the (...) I'm very suprised (almost shocked!) that you say this? Don't you know how many millions of Russians died during WWII??? [1] 25,568,000!!! These are the highest casualties in the entire war. What Bruce mentions below is also true. (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Chris Leach
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| | | | | | | (...) True but the U.S. could have but IKE agreeded to let the U.S.S.R take Berlin(IKE knew it would have cost alot of lives to take so it was no problem for him if the russians WANTED to take it.IE "glory") (...) Hee True! (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | (...) The only question is how many of these 25 million did Stalin off himself (there should be a smiley here, but it is kind of hard to use one when talking about this kinda of mega-death). (...) That was a political deal. (...) The Soviets had (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Mladen Pejic
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| | | | | | | | | (...) many (...) No comment, I really can't pick a side. He probably was a killer, but he sure did a lot for his country... Much like Hitler... Ooo... That doesn't sound good. ;-) Honestly, I'd love to find a leader who doesn't do horrible things (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) I can. The Neutral countries'. We (Portugal and others) managed to keep the population alive and even earning money out of others misery. Our position was very... odd. We lend the Azores to the UK, later the USA - while we were selling (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) There isn't really a side to pick - ruthless totalitarians willing to slay millions. (...) Poor analogy. Better to say, Hitler invades, Milosevic invades, Saddam invades and the U.S. reacts. Despite all justifications, deplorable things (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Mladen Pejic
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Do you get kicks out of pointing that out? (sarcasm on) Bruce, tell me something I don't know! (...) Serbia... (...) Suuure. ;-) (sarcasm on yet again) Gee wiz, I feel so safe when the U.S. is around. I love it when they solve a problem (i.e. (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) The initial plan had been to drop one on a relatively untouched German city, which was questionable to some--a question that conveniently vanished in May of 1945. There was also some concern over "why couldn't the bomb have been demonstrated (...) (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Constantine Hannaher
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) [snip] (...) Serbia... (...) [more snip] I need a little reminding as to who, what, or where was specifically invaded by Milosevic (or indeed, by Yugoslavia at all) that required a US reaction of bombing, invasion, and dismemberment. (...) (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Invasion —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Constantine Hannaher writes: (snipped) (...) Try "Slavonia", in Eastern Croatia. I think it was invaded by the army of the Yugoslav Federation in 1991. And the US did not *want* to invade Yugoslavia because the cost in (...) (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Invasion —Constantine Hannaher
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| | | | | | | | | | The destruction of Vukovar, yes. See, I really did need reminding. There was the shelling of Dubrovnik, too. But it is casting a bit far back to explain the reaction of 1999. Croatia's unilateral secession had yet to be recognized at the time of (...) (23 years ago, 9-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Invasion —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) To be accurate, and correcting myself, that was not really an "invasion", it was more like a "refuse to leave": those military units were manned essentially by serbs but were based on Croatia. Hard to define as a situation... but easy to read (...) (23 years ago, 9-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | | | (...) Nah, that's about the figure accepted for war-related mass democide. Stalin's tally is *on top of that*. (...) Now, this is interesting. What's the political deal you heard? I know that the Germans were evacuating soldiers and civilians en (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Dave Low
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I really enjoyed the scope of this guy's work: lots of comparison and synthesis, mostly from a global perspective. His fun stuff is neat too -- I particularly liked the alternative history of Moslem Australia. (URL) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) any better an idea than I do who he is? Not having real contact info forces me to double check a lot of his sources as litmus tests, but he's really done a very good job of documentation. best LFB (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Dave Low
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I couldn't find any more informative references to or by him either -- his comments on Ayn Rand's propagandists were sufficient guarantee of reliability for me as a layperson: (URL) (#18) --DaveL (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) He's a twit. Quoting: The Berlin Wall (1961-89) Berlin: the grim and lonely front line in the Cold War. What exactly happens on the front lines of a non-event? Border guards glare at one another; they patrol the barbed wire perimeter, and (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Mladen Pejic
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) "symbolic"? (...) Here [1] it says that 171 people were killed trying to escape. Just checking/correcting facts... I don't really know the exact number or if this source is correct. [1] (URL) (...) Mladen Pejic, over and out! (URL) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China (long forgotten subject!) —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) No, you did not. But I must say it doesn't take *a wall* to prevent people from fleeing (see "Iron curtain"), and people got shot and killed while crossing borders in different contexts: before 1974 you could get killed by the portuguese (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China (long forgotten subject!) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) OK, great. So how was this a non event? Wasn't aware that millions of enslaved people was a "non event". (enslaved by the USSR's territorial aggrandisement, by the way, I haven't forgotten I have some stuff to come back to...) He's a twit. (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China (long forgotten subject!) —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Yeh, but note it's a personal call, and he also points out (elsewhere) that "overrated" doesn't mean "unimportant." (...) Dunno, never met the guy. LFB (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China (long forgotten subject!) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Which is a dodge. The way that little ditty is written, he is clearly trying to minimise or whitewash what was going on. Comparing it to the US/Canada border??? Come ON! (...) Sometimes you don't need to meet someone in person to tell what (...) (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | (...) Actually, I understood that, but was trying to make the point in a simpler fashion. Alas, I seem to have failed. (...) It was agreed that the British and Americans would not advance on Berlin to make sure the Russians had the "honor" of taking (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | (...) Thereabouts. The true tally can never be known, at least not in *this* life--even your source admits that his three sources (probably Volkogonov, Conquest, and Messenger) vary widely. The reputable sources hover between 20 and 27 million. In (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Mladen Pejic
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| | | | | | (...) exhaustive. (...) many (...) Yeah, it's quite shocking. (...) Yeah, the Russians don't give up very easily. Thank God (and I'm not religious ;-D) they didn't, things could have went differently... (...) Hehe... yeah. ;-) (...) Two million (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Greg Perry
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| | | | | (...) Dave - please see my response to Psi ((URL) for my apologies for this statement. I would however ask you to keep in mind that it was made in response to lawrence's sarcastic "thanks" to the U.S. I realize now (as is often the case with what I (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) Fair enough--I posted my message before you had explained your intention. (...) Perhaps something along the lines of "In my experience, products manufactured in China sometimes display less tightly-controlled standards of quality, such that (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | (...) Nah. I think it's just Moon Madness (not a value statement about the moon, calm down everyone! ;) )--or maybe September Stress-- that's getting everyone in a tizzy. I know it's gotten the best of me a few times in the last week (maybe here (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: LEGO Made in China & Charges of Racism —Greg Perry
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| | | | | | (...) LFB - thanks for the further validation that my original posting was not guilty of the charges that others were so quick to hurl at it. As it so typical with the people who screech "Racism!" and "Bigot!" (and living here in Richmond, Virginia (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: LEGO Made in China & Charges of Racism —David Lukens
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| | | | | | (...) Welcome to The United States of the Offended. For an interesting read try the "Bill of No Rights". One idea I always liked from it was that you do not have the right to be not offended. (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: LEGO Made in China & Charges of Racism —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | Hey David, (...) Yeah. That's why once I've made a charge, if it's contested, I'll continue on (or apologize if I may have been wrong). Throwing things around flippantly like that will eventually destroy their meaning. I blame television. :) (...) (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: LEGO Made in China & Charges of Racism —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | | | Ooops! Bad nettiquette, but I mixed my idioms and my verbiage! In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Lindsay Frederick Braun screws up: (...) Ack, I just reread this and it sounds really bad. I should have said "sustain my argument" and not "continue on" (...) (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Shaun Sullivan
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| | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes: [snip] (...) Hi Dave, The above comment really caught me by surprise - I've never before heard of any theory or perspective that could justifiably separate the Catholic/Protestant friction in Northern (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) Yeah--call that some ham-fisted wording on my part. I was trying to isolate it to a theological dispute, but of course that very dispute stems from the occupation. So stipulated! (...) The basis of that claim is a failure to articulate what I (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Simon Bennett
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| | | | | (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Simon Bennett
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| | | | (...) Well, now I've started I may as well get fully involved in .debate! Shaun You may like to consider separating British Military presence (which began in the early 1970's at the request of the Catholic community to protect them from Protestant (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Simon Bennett
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| | | | | (...) Sorry for following myself up but I must say I stand corrected about Dave's meaning. I wasn't too sure I should have put words in his mouth and now it seems the words were wrong in the first place. Sorry All, I never really wanted to open the (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) That was cool, though--kind of like watching me have a debate with myself. Dave! (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | (...) The British brought in Scots Pres(oh geez, I can't remember how to spell this)byterians at a much later date. The Catholic/Protestant thing is not really independent of British occupation (topmost quote above). One could typify it as centuries (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China —Lindsay Frederick Braun
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| | | | (...) Muuhahahahaha, etc etc :) (...) This is extremely interesting! My segment of British/Irish history really doesn't go back past the Boyne, so this is a very cloudy period in my knowledge. Were these Scots who invaded in the 14th-C. descended (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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