Subject:
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Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:56:09 GMT
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Viewed:
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1644 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Lindsay Frederick Braun writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mladen Pejic writes:
> > > I'm very suprised (almost shocked!) that you say this? Don't you know how many
> > > millions of Russians died during WWII??? [1] 25,568,000!!! These are the
> > > highest casualties in the entire war
> >
> > The only question is how many of these 25 million did Stalin off himself
> > (there should be a smiley here, but it is kind of hard to use one when
> > talking about this kinda of mega-death).
>
> Nah, that's about the figure accepted for war-related mass
> democide. Stalin's tally is *on top of that*.
Actually, I understood that, but was trying to make the point in a simpler
fashion. Alas, I seem to have failed.
>
> > > The Soviet army reached Hitler's bunker first.
> >
> > That was a political deal.
>
> Now, this is interesting. What's the political deal you heard?
> I know that the Germans were evacuating soldiers and civilians
> en masse to the West to surrender to the British, French, and US.
> But I've never heard of any particular "deal," it was just sort
> of understood--and encouraged, because some of those escapees
> were to prove quite useful in the Cold War.
It was agreed that the British and Americans would not advance on Berlin to
make sure the Russians had the "honor" of taking the city. Certainly they
suffered the most at the hands of the Germans and it was not inappropriate.
I wish I could point to a source, but my studies of WWII were long ago.
>
> > > The Battle of Kursk was one of the greatest tank battles in history (Soviets
> > > won).
> >
> > The Soviets had very good tanks, and lots of them.
>
> And really, really, REALLY fearless tankers. Have you ever
> crawled into the turret of a T-34/76 or a T-34/85? A coffin
> would be quite roomy by comparison (but about the same shape,
> as I remarked after my turn under the cupola). Not only did
> the Soviets have the material to throw at the Germans, but
> they were possessed of a zeal and willingness to sacrifice
> for the defence of the nation that remains strong among the
> veterans even today.
Never been in any tank - B17 is it. Tankers I have talked to have refered
to modern tanks as being in a coffin, so I imagine that they were that much
worse in WWII.
>
> > > The Soviet army destroyed (i.e. completely) practically all the German armies
> > > that had invaded the U.S.S.R.
> >
> > The death camps you don't hear about - if Hitler was a bigger monster, it
> > wasn't because Stalin didn't try. (another dubious smiley placement)
>
> I discovered this page, written by a librarian:
>
> http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm
>
> And it's actually quite eloquent. He points out how hard it is to
> compare the monsters, to gauge intent, and to tally results.
> His numbers are pretty defensible on the whole, especially on Mao.
> The whole site, while not big on flash and graphics, makes for
> some really, really, REALLY sobering reading--and he gives his
> sources quite clearly. Read the US litany anytime you're feeling
> *too* triumphalist...;)
>
> best
Didn't find the "US litany" (we were really good at wiping out American
Indians at a hazard).
Anyway, the web site was interesting, but it does prove my point - if Hitler
was a bigger monster (or Mao) it wasn't because Stalin didn't try.
Bruce
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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| (...) Nah, that's about the figure accepted for war-related mass democide. Stalin's tally is *on top of that*. (...) Now, this is interesting. What's the political deal you heard? I know that the Germans were evacuating soldiers and civilians en (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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