 | | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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I'm not sure why you two continue to intermittantly duke it out. Larry thinks you're an evil commie, and you think he's an evil...umm...I can't think of a good word...robber baron? (...) How so? (...) That's not really true. Obviously I agree with (...) (24 years ago, 24-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) engineer of the ME generation. :') (...) Simple, its not a black and white, yes or no, question. (...) It doesn't change a thing. A very simple example - if, according to you and LAR, people should "take (moral/financial) responsibility for (...) (24 years ago, 24-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) ED: My name is Lar, not LAR. By spelling it or capitalizing it in a way that I don't choose, you are trying to use a form of namecalling. You know better. people should "take (moral/financial) responsibility for things that they (...) (...) (24 years ago, 24-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Oh my gosh! Something that returned close to the original point! :-) This is not unreasonable - put the money were it will do the most good. Lots of times my wife and I decide we want a number of things and there isn't enough money to go (...) (24 years ago, 24-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Sorry if you were offended by the all caps Lar, didn't even realize I typed it that way (6:00a.m. pre-coffee). Give me a break, if I was going to name call, I'd do a whole lot better than that. :') (...) So in essence, you are saying that, (...) (24 years ago, 24-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Oh, OK, Thanks. :-) (...) Something that struck me while reading Ed's and Larry's responses to all this is that ultimately it's not a matter of need. We _DO_ take moral and financial responsibility for these things. If you sleep around, you (...) (24 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) When I first read this I just knew (incorrectly) that it would end with something like "infringing on my trade dress." Oh well. Hey Lar, do you prefer Lar or Larry? (...) Wow. I'd heard that about NYC inhabitants, but...wow. European friends (...) (24 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Does this mean that if you contracted a life-threatening illness, you would refuse any treatment that in large part resulted from animal testing? If not, why not? eric (24 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Further, he must by definition be either a full vegetarian or a full cannibal, at least in principle. Dave! (24 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) the (...) For research of course one can't use pure cost/benefit analysis. There has to be risk and potential analysis also. Also, some amount of basic research must continue, so that you don't purely allocate money by ranking all the possible (...) (24 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) No, the research dollars will be spent where there is the *perception* of best return. Further, it may be simply be the perception of the best short-term return. And just to add to that, it may involve more resources than a single company can (...) (24 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: [snip] (...) You lost me there - "To claim less is to give up something so valuable that I can't even approach why you might want to." I have no idea what the comment means. (...) some (...) (...) (24 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: [snip] (...) a (...) Then you'll never understand the freedom of not owning a car, not having that responsibility. WHen I need a car, I rent one. But for the cost of car payments, NYC car (...) (24 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) be (...) for (...) rare (...) And that is exactly when the government finally starting funding AIDS research - when Nancy Reagan's friend Rock Hudson got AIDS. (24 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Say on, brother! I'm 29 and have never had a license, nor have I ever really wanted one. Regretably, circumstances will soon force me to sell out to The Man, but I've done just fine--and saved many dollars on insurance--without a car up to (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) cabs (...) really (...) :-) Honestly, there is something romantic about the idea, just like there is about hiking the Appalachian Trail, which is something I'm working toward (but my car will be waiting for me that the end). And maybe for a (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) No. (...) For two reasons. First, because the harm has already been done. I also assert that we should use the gains of the Nazi doctors. You can (rightly) claim that by being a consumer of that good, I'm reinforcing that behavior as (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) other (...) I don't think so. By my above statements: I could be a full cannibal - but I'd also have to think that eating other animals was OK, just not as tasty. Or I could eat anything that I wanted to - people, veggies, beef, whatever - (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: [snip] (...) Do you carry Credit Cards? :') (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Right, sorry about that. I mean that to give up ultimate responsibility for your own situation is essentially the same thing as volunteering for a kind of slavery. It's like saying that you're not capable of taking responsibility for your (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) No longer, but that's another idealogical debate. :-) Chris (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Okay, but my point was that if you equate humans (of any group) with animals (also, presumably, of any group), then you would see no difference between eating people and eating "animals." Thus any meat consumption would be equivalent to eating (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) But surely you don't have a problem with handling ABS?! Dave! (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Ok..into the fray I plunge: You have a point regarding promiscuous (spelling?) behavior, but I know someone who was raped when an intruder broke into her house. I'd hardly blame the victim in that case. I wholeheartedly disagree with your (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Do you mean they're "responsible" because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or "they're asking for it?" So if I start knifing people at random the next time I'm on the subway, it's somehow they're fault, at least (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) that's (...) Right. And that is, in fact, what I believe. But I assumed by "full cannibal" you meant that I would eat human but no other meat. That idea can't be logically derived from what I wrote. Were I to resort to eating any animals (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Chris's point, and I agree with it, is that the victim does have some responsibility. Perhaps they should have lived in a safer neighborhood. Perhaps they should have instituted a neighborhood watch. BUT, this minor responsibility doesn't (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) think (...) accident. (...) I would never, under any circumstances, blame the victim of a rape - or any violent crime (it's not a violent crime if it was justified) - for the crime's committal. That's just not a viable or productive stance. On (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Just to pursue this to a morbid conclusion, you would therefore have no compunctions against sexual relations with any animal you found suitably attractive, and you would likewise be as willing to donate an organ to any animal (antigen issues (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) accident. (...) To say that one is "asking for it" asserts they desire that outcome. Few people desire to be raped or collided with by another automobile. On the other hand, they didn't desire the opposite enough to secure that outcome. Such (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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OK, hopefully the kiddies are kept away from l.o-t.d (...) would (...) I would apply the same standards that I do to humans...we must both be willing and interested. There is nothing wrong with inter-species copulation when both (all?) parteners are (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) So if I stomp on an infant or kill a sleeping person, they're still somehow responsible? Your assertion, after a fashion, amounts to "victims make themselves victims." (...) A tempting offer, but I must decline. However, by your previous (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I think that there is a real inherent difference between eating human flesh and eating other animal flesh, because there is a difference between being Fully Animal, and Merely Animal. To explain: The fact that humans possess all of the basic (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) In the case of the infant, where were the parents? In the case of the sleeping person, where are they sleeping, why didn't they sleep in a safer place? Why didn't they get a buddy to watch them? Sure, the necessary action to completely protect (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) OK, you caught me. You found a loophole for which I'm not willing to stick to my guns. Infants, having not attained a reasonable measure of maturity and ability, don't count. Infants do not make themselves victims. OTOH, to some extent, the (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) I agree completely! Unfortunately I didn't read your other post on this subject until after I'd posted my previous message, or I'd've addressed your points! (...) That's not my intent at all, and, since this is for all intents and purposes a (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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I'm rearranging here and there, not to mislead, but to address things in the order that I chose... (...) If you expect to be flamed by me, guess again. First, you are expressing eloquently a very normal belief. It's wrong (at least for me), but I'm (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Heh. Not being *purposely* obtuse, though I was trying to extend your argument to (one of) its extreme conclusions. As I mentioned in a response to one of Frank's posts, I'm not comfortable with the latitude such words as "victim" and (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) No. Of course not. You are equally (that is to say fully?) responsible in each instance. In neither case is your death or survival exactly your fault, but in both cases it was your responsibility to assure your safety. And it was the piano (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) This is an interesting point to consider. What one needs to consider is that being involved in an incident is not what creates your responsibility for avoiding the risk. It just actuallizes the risk. The responsibility for avoiding the risk is (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Part of this was my error in blurring the relationship between "fault" and "responsibility." My feeling, though, is still that while we are primarily responsible for ourselves, we are also societally responsible for others. I don't think this (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I do mostly agree with you - victims are rarely 100%, well...victims. Often some act of indiscretion or carelessness is a contributing factor, but...isn't that just the nature of life? I have a friend who just got 2 fingers ripped off in a (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) I agree that the speeder was responsible for the accident, but while I can point to ways that your friend's behavior could have avoided it, I can claim that he shares responsibility. (I realize that this is not an argument against what you've (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) True, but surely you realize that this is every bit as absurd as my infant- stomping example from my earlier post. He could have been driving a tank. He could have demolished every car driving over the hill. He could have posted a sentry at (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I certainly didn't mean to suggest that I expected an imminent flame from you...I was merely acknowledging that some people following this thread will no doubt vehemently disagree with me. (...) I'm not sure that I follow your question...do (...) (24 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) being (...) I mean, why does the difference between being fully animal and being merely animal have anything to do with who should be able to victimize whom? (...) I think that murder "is an unfortuante part of the reality of this world" too. (...) (24 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Personal Responsibility (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Well, I do think that people are victims. I just also think that they bear responsibility for their situations. And I largely think that people are victims because they don't see to it that they won't be. (...) Yes. And as such, people need to (...) (24 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I'm still not sure that I follow you. My answer, if I understand the question correctly, is that I believe that it is a moral evil to kill animals gratuitously. (No doubt we'll find some common ground here, but disagree as to what exactly (...) (24 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personal Responsibility (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Agreed. (...) Yes, but life is a terribly complex and complicated thing. People must deal with their mistakes, but often it is not reasonable or right to make them 100% responsible. (...) Regarding Lego, unfortunatly, I have not made yet made (...) (24 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personal Responsibility (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) It's hard for me to fault them too much, when the government (by your account) seems to have gone out of its way to make this happen. (...) He should have negotiated for a better employment contract. This scenario seems bizzarre in this land (...) (24 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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James, upon reading through your response to my last longish note on this it struck me that I was kind of beating the same topic, and that I sounded antagonistic to you as a religious person. While I disagree with you, and it makes it harder to (...) (24 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personal Responsibility (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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James Simpson wrote in message ... (...) deal (...) 100% (...) Chris (and I) have never said that the "victim" is ever 100% responsible. We have just argued that the victim does have SOME responsibility. Thankfully North Carolina doesn't see it (...) (24 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personal Responsibility (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Agreed. (24 years ago, 28-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) me (...) of (...) Christopher: I haven't been offended by how you have expressed your views; in fact, I enjoy a friendly clash of arms. (...) I believe that gratuitous killing includes killing for sport, but I'm not prepared to say that (...) (24 years ago, 30-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Correction to a poorly-worded statement; I meant to say: The afterlife will be a poorer place if it lacks animal life, but I believe that animals will be present. James (24 years ago, 30-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Fair enough. (...) Very honest. Very nice. :D eric (24 years ago, 30-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Why not do away witht the old testament then - as part of scripture, only - obviously it would retain historical value. (...) Uh...no. I misread and now feel foolish. :-) (Actually, yeah...yeah...that's the ticket, you can catch him at the (...) (24 years ago, 31-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Why not do away witht the old testament then - as part of scripture, only - obviously it would retain historical value. (...) Uh...no. I misread and now feel foolish. :-) (Actually, yeah...yeah...that's the ticket, you can catch him at the (...) (24 years ago, 31-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) It still has enormous theological value; the difference is that it is now read and understood in light of our fuller understanding of God as compiled in the New Testament. (...) Ok...I concede the point that it was inconsistent to include (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) you (...) Nope. I would chose the human option, but not because I believe that it is capable of experiencing a "Better existence." I'm familiar with it, I know it's OK, I'd go with the known over the unknown in this case (unless I had reason (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The nature of being (was Aids, Vegetarianism etc.)
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(...) Even if rights were a fiction, I'd agree with you that to avoid causing suffering is better. But, fundamentally, from a bedrock philosophical basis, we have no ultimate way to condemn evil if creatures do not objectively have a right to (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Chris, I haven't been following this thread for the past week and I'm not caught up yet. I'm a little confused by the above paragraph. Are you vegan or lacto-ovo-vegetarian? It sounds like the latter to me, but I wanted to be sure. FYI, I've (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I had a professor in college who has made arragements to be buried six inches deep in a forest in VA. I know it doesn't have the same effect as your wishes but it sounds like its legal. -chris (24 years ago, 2-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Hmm.. What if you lightning subsequently sets fire to the woods where you're hypothetically dropped? Or if a landslide buries you? Burying and burning may be creepy, but cholera (for example) and the stench of rotting corpses trouble me, too. (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) for (...) years. (...) milk (...) have (...) yet. (...) The latter. I think the line "I eat eggs and dairy..." really gives it away :-) (...) Good for you! I've toyed with following a vegan diet, but it's not a step that I'm ready to take for (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Well, I guess I won't care...I'll be dead. I mean, nothing's perfect. (...) I'm pretty sure that the stench of rotting corpses doesn't trouble vultures and heyenas; how about if you just let them have me instead of trying to do the work (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) That's what I thought, 'cept the sentance "I haven't eaten (except for trace amounts by mistake) the flesh, or derivatives, of an animal in six years." confused me a bit- IMO dairy is an animal derivative. Just checking. I noticed you're (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Oh, I wonder how I should have written that. I meant to be saying flesh-derivatives (like gelatin), not animal-derivatives. I certainly agree that dairy is an animal derivative. (...) Yeah, I've been to DC a few times and there are just a ton (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Yes, but some would argue that these are still by-products of the meat industry. Scott A (...) figure (...) I'm (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Hmmm. I just call everything I can't eat 'cow' (j/k). Flesh-derivative works for me. (...) WAMALUG had a dinner meeting at Harmony Cafe in Georgetown. Even the picky eaters were happy with the meal. It's one of my favorite places to eat here. (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Last time I was in DC (Thanksgiving for two weeks in '97) my friend and I were in an area near a college (we went on the metro) where there were little delis, tatoo and piercing places, used music shops, and a big (and interesting) gay and (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Ah... the venerable 'Food for Thought' on 1738 Connecticut Avenue in Dupont Circle. Sadly, gentrification(1) has taken hold in that area, and most of the landlords(2) raised the rents several times what they were. Food for Thought couldn't (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Yes! That's it. That place rocked! Actually that whole neighborhood was cool. Kind of like Clark and Belmont in Chicago...maybe all cities have a place like that. (...) :-( (...) That sounds likely, but I just don't remember. I'm pretty sure (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Not me. If you don't believe me, come to Michigan where we raise both beef cows and dairy cows and you will soon discover that milk from a beef cow tastes marginal at best and meat from a dairy cow is absolutely awful, tough and stringy and (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) cows (...) I'm a northern Illinois farm boy (okey, flame the hell out of me <g>) and all our beef cattle were steers. I couldn't imagine anyone eating old cow carcasses. likewise, you don't get much dairy product from steers. Tom (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) deserts are where it's at for me currently. my latest success was fake chocolate cheesecake that fooled some non-vegetarians. I also have this crazy dream of opening a diner(stainless steel and all) that serves typically diner food but all of (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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