Debate : 25549


Off-Topic / Debate / 25549

Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

Now that (URL) George W. Bush has killed> his 1,000th US citizen in Iraq, does that make him approximately 33% as bad as Osama bin Laden, who killed about 3,000 people in the WTC? Oh, wait--Bush has killed thousands more than that, when you factor (...) (20 years ago, 7-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Joakim Olsson

"Dave Schuler" <orrex@excite.com> wrote in message news:I3osE0.EJL@lugnet.com... (...) 1,000th US (...) Laden, (...) thousands (...) sake of (...) mention (...) The main difference is that soldiers are asking for it. They are paying for bad US (...) (20 years ago, 7-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

(...) Well, that's the point, isn't it? Bush deliberately initiated an unjustified war, and now 1,000+ US soldiers are dead, along with ~12,000 innocent Iraqis. I agree that soldiers put themselves in harm's way, but one would hope that they (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Joakim Olsson

snip (...) unjustified (...) Iraqis. I (...) they (...) Yes, it is sad. But he will surely pay for it sooner or later. /J (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Help me with the math —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) You don't really believe that it was pointless. Do you? Bush had reasons for doing what he did. You (and I!) just disagree with the felicity of his reasons. You have, in the past, given room for either evil or incompetence as the explanation (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Really? They knew in advance that these fanatics and insurgents would be emboldened? I think you have to be pretty machavellian to see how that would actually be of any benefit to anyone, enough that you would deliberately plot for that (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Actually, I didn't mean at that level of detail. I don't think Bush particularly cares at the trouble. (I mean, I'm sure he'd rather that headache would go away, but that's life.) He was willing to start the war with the associated risks (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) Hmmm, I wonder from where that idea could have come? At the end of his term, Clinton was pardoning crooks so fast it was unbelievable! Besides, you don't have to be convicted to be pardoned. Let's wait and see if Bush actually pardons anyone (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Scott Arthur

(...) They certainly should have known. Is anyone really surprised by events? (...) OIL? Scott A (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) So, by your "logic", was FDR 135 times worse than OBL? Or were you merely trolling? :-) JOHN (20 years ago, 7-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

(...) Did FDR initiate an unprovoked attack upon a sovereign nation? If so, was he inspired to do so because of decades of biased and unbalanced foreign policy, which itself came on the heels of imperialist efforts to usurp the natural resources of (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) Did the Nazis ever attack US soil? (...) What about the aftermath of WWI in terms of policies towards Germany as an major instigator of WWII? (...) Can't parse. "For" the US perhaps? (...) lol seems like that we exactly what you were driving (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) John, if this cause justifies the loss in human life, how much more loss would it justify? What if our best guess based on well-rounded intelligence suggested that the only way to have a serious chance of ridding the world of this vermin was (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) Chris, your hypothetical is so proposterous that is doesn't merit a response. What your little scenario actually sounds like is the Islamo-fascists' goal: Kill all of the Jews and infidels and impose world-wide sharia. JOHN (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) John Neal -- King of the dodge! He's here all week folks, try the veal. Just in case, and more, for other readers, I'll give it one more shot: Let us imagine for a moment that we came (through whatever means) to believe that Islam had a much (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) What? You think you've trapped me with your idiotic scenario??? LOL (...) Imagine? It's already true. But your ridiculous conclusion that the answer to preventing it is to slaughter all Muslims is outrageous! (...) And thus your little science (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I don't think it's possible to trap you. I'm not even sure I know what you mean. (...) Seriously? (...) I appreciate the compliment. (...) OK, now here's what I don't get. Before you said it was beneath you to answer. What gives? (...) Somehow (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) Well, you made such a big deal (not to be confused with another type of Big Deal;-) that I was dodging, I thought you actually thought that I was dodging the question. (...) If nothing changes, sure. Generations of Palestinians have grown up (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the Arithmetic —Scott Arthur

(...) Is the opposite not also true? If you think not, read what the Mitchell report says about Israeli schools. Scott A (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

link with Islam? —Scott Arthur

(...) What is the link with Islam? I thought the trouble in the ME was due to Israeli nationalism, not Islam. Perhaps you could share your source with us? Scott A (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Are you referring to this op-ed piece cited in : (URL) MSNBC> (also cited in about a bazillion other places) (...) Don't confuse selling us something with not wanting our input into their internal processes. Our "friends" the Saudis are HAPPY (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) Actually, I hadn't seen that piece, but I cited a few yesterday with the same sentiments (URL) HERE> (...) Is not the market a two-way street? They should need us as much as we them. (...) And therein lies the rub. Sure, what's the difference (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Scott Arthur

(...) Bush would never upset his friends. (...) Well a certain "mordern country" is assiting human rights abuses in countries like Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Yemen & Pakistan whilst breaking internatioanl law itself. What does that have to do with (...) (20 years ago, 14-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Sure. They chose not to overthrow Hussein and install a proper rule-of-law system. Isn't that the same thing? Chris (20 years ago, 14-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Agreed. But can you blame them? They saw what happened to the last revolutionaries (post Gulf War I) that were egged on by Bush Senior, then left twisting in the wind. You can say they should have tried again, and you'd be probably right, but (...) (20 years ago, 14-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

(...) Unless you mean Prescott Bush begetting George HW Bush begetting George W Bush, then I don't think that Nazis did attack US soil. However, they invaded and attacked numerous allies of the US, did they not? Did Iraq likewise engage in invasion (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) OBL is a religious fanatic, not a political one. He doesn't even represent a sovereign nation. (...) That is exactly what I will tell you. I know that "far more complex" reasons sounds appealing, but honestly, what are they??? He doesn't even (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

(canceled) —Dave Schuler

Re: Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

(...) That’s nice, but I notice that you didn’t answer my question. Should anyone in the Dubya adminstration be held accountable for inciting a war based on false and/or culpably erroneous information? And in any case, your honest belief is (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) I believe that military intervention was warranted, given Rez 1441 and SH's complete and incomprehensible stupidity about not coming clean WRT WMDs. If you are searching for a smoking idiot, surely it is he! (...) Hmmm. What is your evidence? (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

(...) Dubya can't on one hand claim that the UN is irrelevant while on the other hand condemning Saddam for disobeying the UN's resolutions. Additionally, it's not up to Bush to enforce the UN's resolutions; do you propose that the US act as the (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) I think they lobbed a few petulant shells from U-Boats at us, but it is immaterial whether they actually attacked U.S. soil: they declared war on us a few days after the Pearl Harbor attack. (...) You keep piping up with tha line. Bush's (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) (snippage) (...) Please. SH was always a threat to stability in that region-- the first Gulf War was ample proof of that. Again, intelligence was bad WRT WMD but frankly, in a scenario like that it is in our best interests to err on the side (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) That has absolutely nothing to do with the point. Bush sold the war on the basis of "WoMD" (Weapons of Mass Destruction for anyone wandering by) and when Bush couldn't find any, he came up with the "bad man" excuse. Bait and switch. (...) That (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) I don't agree. He sold the war on the premise that SH was a bad man who possessed WMDs and wouldn't think twice about making those weapons available to our enemies. I never bought the direct threat idea-- just the aid and abett idea. After (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Look up the quote chain and you'll see I established "immenent use of WoMD". Basically, you are agreeing with me. All you did is weasel in the words "bad man". (...) You accept that lame explanation? You are satisfied with that? A shrug of the (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —David Koudys

(...) <snip> (...) <snip> (...) I wouldn't state that Dubya The Idiot did nothing. He did something--he told all his buddies--remember that many of them didn't, or wouldn't, fly in the preceeding weeks leading up to 9/11. Note that this pre 9/11 (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) I believe that the Bush administration believed he had them and could at any time make them available to al-Qaeda. That was the source of the immediacy, not that some attack was imminent. (...) Do you have a better explanation of the (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) That would be included in what I said. However, there are no WoMD and no Al Qaeda connections. Bush can believe what he wants, but I am saying he should be held accountable for his mistakes. (...) He just released a new claim that America is (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) Fair enough. (...) Okay. But I reserve the right to have you eat magpie and admit you were wrrrrr if they turn up in Syria or somewhere:-) (...) Check (URL) this> out. (...) And his triumphs, I presume. Fair enough. (...) Why no video? (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) I have some comment on the tip of my tongue about what you could be eating in the meantime, but somehow, (hint, it involves the President's last name) I'm not sure I can say that on Lugnet. _ :-0 - Is it still missing, by the way? (Munch's The (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Help me with the math —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I'm usually wrong about how to reason with John, so maybe I should just shut up. But would it make things easier if those of us who think that Bush was seriously negligent in his handling of the intelligence regarding the 9/11 attack admitted (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) John said "Bush is brilliant" and that is what I am arguing about. Not "Clinton is an idiot". John is playing a game: Bush is not responsible for anything that has gone wrong, it's all Somebody Else's Fault. Essentially, he's trying to drag (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Is Bush an idiot? (was: Help me with the math) —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) What if his goals are completely opaque to us? What if severing the restrictive ties of international prestige is a goal for the new world order crowd? What if handing an unquenchable mess to a Democrat so that four years later the next step (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Ross Crawford

(...) Well, I believe Australia is also playing a small part in the "war on terror", as well as Iraq. I guess we haven't been as lucky as the US. (URL) well. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, I guess. ROSCO (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —John Neal

(...) You are counting embassy land as official territory of Australia, and that's fine. (...) Say it with pride, Ross! I salute Australians and their courage to stand up and offer their sons and daughters as sacrifices for the cause of Freedom. The (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

(...) Give it another 50 days or so. Dave! (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

What is a sovereign nation ? —Don Heyse

(...) What is a sovereign nation? Is there really such a thing anymore? Everything seems so global these days. Global corporations. Global terrorist organizations. Global special interest groups. The global internet. Nothing much seems rooted to a (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Help me with the math —Mike Petrucelli

(...) So what about the 1-2 hundred thousand Saddam was not able to kill as political prisoners? (the longer we go the highet that number gets) It is estimated he killed 1.5 million between the two Gulf wars. Now don't get me wrong there are a lot (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

(...) A couple of points: To date, no huge mass graves have been found, so we're left with the uncomfortable problem of explaining where the 1.5 million bodies went. And I'm not looking for Pol Pot's "show me the bodies, or else there was no (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Mike Petrucelli

(...) There haven't? This was in all the papers, news, etc. shortly after major combat was allegedly 'ended'. (...) But at the same time even Bill Clinton when president stated that sooner or later the U.S. would have to deal with Sadam and his (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

(...) Do you mean (URL) (...) Clinton still says this, but it still doesn't make a difference re: Dubya's choice to invade when he did and for the reasons that he gave. (...) Did Kerry make that statement? I don't deny it, though I haven't seen it. (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Mike Petrucelli

(...) The point is that Dubya did not invent the intelligence and mislead us into war. Everyone was mislead including Dubya. (...) Well the last pro-Kerry Ad I heard on the radio says that John Kerry stands by his descision to vote for military (...) (20 years ago, 11-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) I do not think that is truly representing it accurately. It was Dubya's staff that rather willfully read into the intelligence what they wanted to hear, or possibly exploited what was there by presenting what the higher ups wanted/expected to (...) (20 years ago, 11-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

(...) Bruce gave a good refutation of this, and in any case the buck doesn't stop with everyone else--it stops with Dubya. If he endorsed the intelligence report, then he, as the highest link in the chain, bears primary responsibility for the (...) (20 years ago, 13-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Dave Schuler

(...) More (URL) mass graves> that shouldn't be confused with justification for Dubya's deliberately illegal and voluntary oil war. Dave! (20 years ago, 13-Oct-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Help me with the math —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) True peace will never exist as long as some people have things that other people want and have no way to obtain. I doubt very much that our species will ever solve this problem. On the bright side, I expect we'll use technology to outgrow our (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)