Subject:
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Re: Help me with the math
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 9 Sep 2004 05:13:40 GMT
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Viewed:
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952 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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Did FDR initiate an unprovoked attack upon a sovereign nation?
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Did the Nazis ever attack US soil?
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Unless you mean Prescott Bush begetting George HW Bush begetting George W
Bush, then I don’t think that Nazis did attack US soil. However, they
invaded and attacked numerous allies of the US, did they not? Did Iraq
likewise engage in invasion or attack against the US or its allies?
Remember, of course, the shots fired in the “no-fly” zones don’t count.
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which itself came on the heels of imperialist efforts to usurp the natural
resources of the US?
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Can’t parse. “For” the US perhaps?
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Awkward phrasing, but I really did mean “of” instead of “for.” Try it this
way: “Did FDR attack a sovereign nation because that nation (and its allies)
imposed decades of imperialist intercession in the US, including the
usurpation (by that sovereign nation and its allies) of the the natural
resources of the US?”
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OBL is a religious fanatic, not a political one. He doesn’t even represent a
sovereign nation.
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--the justification for FDR’s actions
differed mightily from OBL’s.
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Of course! There was no justification for OBL’s action!
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I agree that the attack against civilians was unjustified, and strong
military response was justified (though the routing of the Taliban was
fleeting, at best.)
But please don’t tell me that you think OBL attacked the WTC just because he
“hates our Freedom” or “despises our Western values.” Surely you’re aware
that the reasons for the attack were far more complex and deep-seated than
the simple black/white that Dubya likes to put forth.
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That is exactly what I will tell you. I know that “far more complex” reasons
sounds appealing, but honestly, what are they??? He doesn’t even give a list
of demands. “We have a military presence in SA”. BFD! We are friggin’
allies with SA! The guy is a looney! There is nothing we can do short of
converting to his brand of Islam that will stop his efforts to attack us.
Nothing.
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GWB’s choice to invade and bomb a sovereign
nation that hadn’t attacked the US or its allies more closely resembles
OBL’s choice to bomb the WTC than it resembles FDR’s decision to enter
WWII.
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How outrageous! Bush’s intervention in Iraq was all about deposing SH’s
cruel and dangerous regime-- nothing more!
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According to which speech du jour? The justification for deposing Saddam’s
regime was because he posed an “imminent threat” to the US and because we
knew for certain that he had WMD. Both of these are false, or at the very
lease hopelessly incorrect.
Do you feel that the Dubya administration should face no accountability for
its ineptitude?
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I honestly believe that, given more time, SH would have assisted terrorists to
unleash a WMD on US soil. He needed to be deposed. The UN is paper tiger and
he knew it. He would always have been a threat and was a menace to the world.
The world is a safer place without the threat of what he might have perpetrated
on us or anyone else for that matter.
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Why are we still meeting
resistance in Iraq?
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Because we’ve killed thousands of civilians and because we’re perceived as an
occupying, anti-Islamic military force.
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You couldn’t be more wrong. That is not the perception of the overwhelming
majority of Iraqis about our presence there. You have been deceived by biased
and unconscionable media reports.
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All we want to do is help the Iraqis set up a government
that insures freedom for her people and leave! What is wrong with
that????
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If that were truly the goal, then I would be more favorably disposed to it.
The goal is actually to establish a strong US military presence in the region
and to secure oil reserves for US interests. In the unlikiely event that the
Iraqis actually gain freedom as well, then so much the better. But their
“freedom” is hardly the reason that the US invaded, and it’s hardly the
reason that the US is still there.
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Well I strongly disagree. We are only establishing a strong military presence
there until Iraq can do that herself. Then we won’t be needed. Do you disagree
that we’d leave tomorrow if a free Iraq had the ability to defend herself
against insurgents? Further, we are securing the oil reserves to protect them
so that we can eventually purchase it (not steal it).
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We attacked to remove SH’s regime-- that regime is history! So why is
there still fighting? Because of Islamic Fascists who don’t want Freedom!
They want pukes like SH in power around the world who are sympathetic to
their cause who will assist them in their fight against the West.
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If we finally succeed in forcing the Iraqi citizens to accept the US brand of
freedom, and if the Iraqis freely choose to install a brutal, fundamentalist
dictator who hates the West, will we honor their choice?
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First, it mostly certainly won’t be our “brand of freedom”. They will create
their own. Your second point is moot, because it is patently ridiculous and
borderline racist.
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I’m sorry, there’s a smudge on my monitor. It looked like you typed “Bush is
brilliant” there for a second.
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Why must we wait for a nuclear bomb to be denotated on
our soil before everyone gets the message??? The only way to stop these
wackjobs is for all nations to unite to purge them from their respective
soils.
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“Kill them all; God will recognize his own”, right? If this is truly your
attitude, then you are as much a dangerous, fundamentalist wackjob as the
despots you decry.
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Then we can go about the
business of hunting them down one by one and exterminating them like the
vermin they are.
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Chris raised a great point: if we can only secure your vision of security by
exterminating all Muslims, do you advocate this course?
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We are not on the same page here. When I stated “these wackjobs”, I was
referring to Islamo-facist who advocate and perpetrate terrorism. Yes, people
who deliberately kill innocent women and children (for whatever reason, frankly)
deserve to die. I was never referring to “all Muslims”. Actually, the ideal
solution would be for Muslims to clean their own house.
JOHN
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: Help me with the math
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| (...) That’s nice, but I notice that you didn’t answer my question. Should anyone in the Dubya adminstration be held accountable for inciting a war based on false and/or culpably erroneous information? And in any case, your honest belief is (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Help me with the math
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| (...) Unless you mean Prescott Bush begetting George HW Bush begetting George W Bush, then I don't think that Nazis did attack US soil. However, they invaded and attacked numerous allies of the US, did they not? Did Iraq likewise engage in invasion (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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