Subject:
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Re: Help me with the math
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:38:23 GMT
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Viewed:
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1023 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
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Do you feel that the Dubya administration should face no accountability
for its ineptitude?
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I honestly believe that, given more time, SH would have assisted terrorists
to unleash a WMD on US soil.
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That’s nice, but I notice that you didn’t answer my question. Should anyone
in the Dubya adminstration be held accountable for inciting a war based on
false and/or culpably erroneous information?
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I believe that military intervention was warranted, given Rez 1441 and SH’s
complete and incomprehensible stupidity about not coming clean WRT WMDs. If
you are searching for a smoking idiot, surely it is he!
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Dubya can’t on one hand claim that the UN is irrelevant while on the other hand
condemning Saddam for disobeying the UN’s resolutions. Additionally, it’s not
up to Bush to enforce the UN’s resolutions; do you propose that the US act as
the world’s policeman? That’s not very conservative of you.
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And in any case, your honest belief is irrelevant, as is Dubya’s. “Belief”
simply isn’t sufficient justification to murder 1,000 soldiers and ~12,000
Iraqis. Let’s say that I honestly believe that the guy in the cube across
from me will kill me tomorrow unless I kill him today--am I therefore
justified in murdering him pre-emptively?
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Hmmm. What is your evidence?
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How about this--he spreads anti-Dave rhetoric, he engages in policies that I
find objectionable, and he controls resources that I want. Additionally, I tell
people that he has the means to effect widespread destruction with 45-minutes’
notice. Can I kill him now? And can I kill ~12,000 of his friends and
neighbors, too?
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Are you kidding? You yourself asked why the US military is meeting
resistance, and I answered that the resistance is in response to the
thousands of murders that the US military has committed.
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By groups who do not represent the will of the vast majority of Iraqis.
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Cite, please. How do you know this? Similarly, Bush does not represent the
will of the vast majority of Americans (or even a near-majority, in most cases),
yet you seem willing to let him do whatever he wants for whatever reason he
wants. Why do you sometimes worship the Will Of The People but other times cast
it aside?
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What reason do you propose as an alternative?
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They are factions who don’t want Democracy in Iraq.
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Why isn’t that their prerogative, as a sovereign people?
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Do the fighters in Iraq strike against US targets
because those fighters hate my freedom?
And anyway, most polls I’ve read show that an overwhelming majority of
Iraqis consider the US military to be an unwelcome occupying force, and a
similar majority flatly disapproves of the US presence there. I’ll provide a
citation once you have provided yours.
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But the polls also show that they are all glad SH is gone.
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No kidding. I’m glad that Ari Fleischer is gone, but that doesn’t mean I like
Bush. Can you not see that the two are not really relevant to each other? Just
because Iraqis are glad to be rid of a brutal dictator, you can’t assume that
they’re thrilled that the occupying power has killed ~12,000 Iraqis.
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Well I strongly disagree. We are only establishing a strong military
presence there until Iraq can do that herself. Then we won’t be needed. Do
you disagree that we’d leave tomorrow if a free Iraq had the ability to
defend herself against insurgents?
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Absolutely I disagree. The US is in the process of building the largest US
embassy in the world in Iraq. Do you suggest that the US will abandon this
huge embassy once the insurgents have been quelled?
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Why would we abandon our embassy? We have embassies everywhere! What does
building a big embassy prove?
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The establishment of a huge embassy is the establishment of a huge (and more or
less permanent) military presence. You’re pretending that the US military
presence will only remain in Iraq until Iraq can take care of itself, yet the
presence of the embassy handily dispels your illusion.
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We attacked to remove SH’s regime-- that regime is history! So why is there
still fighting? Because of Islamic Fascists who don’t want Freedom! They
want pukes like SH in power around the world who are sympathetic to their
cause who will assist them in their fight against the West.
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If we finally succeed in forcing the Iraqi citizens to accept the US brand
of freedom, and if the Iraqis freely choose to install a brutal,
fundamentalist dictator who hates the West, will we honor their choice?
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First, it mostly certainly won’t be our “brand of freedom”. They will
create their own. Your second point is moot, because it is patently
ridiculous and borderline racist.
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I’m calling you out--explain to me exactly why the second point is moot, how
it is ridiculous, and why it is racist. If you will not do this, I must
require you to withdraw this objection.
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Because it is so ludicrous that it would never happen. Explain to me why a
society would willingly choose to be ruled by a hateful dictator.
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Hitler (yeah, yeah, Godwin.) was elected by a majority (unlike Bush, by the
way). Aristide was elected by a huge majority (also unlike Bush) and was
determined to be contrary to US interests. You’re delusional if you truly think
that a dictator (even a brutal one) cannot be elected by democratic process.
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To suppose that any
culture would do such a preposterous thing implies that the society in
question is so backward and ignorant that they can’t even competently select
a leader.
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So 1930’s Germany was populated by stupid people? Haiti in 2001 was populated
by stupid people?
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Furthermore, I called the second point “borderline” racist,
not “racist”. I give the Iraqis more credit than that, and I happen to have
found your hypothetical demeaning to them.
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So are you calling me racist or not? Don’t equivocate here, as you usually do
when pressed to a point. And here is the way you should consider the question:
Am I racist because I believe that Iraqis (who are not a race, by the way)
should be permitted to elect their government as they see fit, even if the
resultant government is hostile to America?
Dave!
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Help me with the math
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| (...) I believe that military intervention was warranted, given Rez 1441 and SH's complete and incomprehensible stupidity about not coming clean WRT WMDs. If you are searching for a smoking idiot, surely it is he! (...) Hmmm. What is your evidence? (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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