Debate : 26674


Off-Topic / Debate / 26674

We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Larry Pieniazek

I found the subject quote hysterically funny. YMMV... (URL) toward the bottom of that story. (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) Props to Mummert for correctly identifying his enemy. Give those smart people an inch, and they'll take ~2.54 centimeters. Dave! (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) I think what the person meant was that we are being attacked by the intelligensia, the secular "educated" elite, and I think he is right on. There is a culture war going on in our country. Heh, what I find hysterical is the thought of (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) I have to admit I'm kind of suprised at the terminology. I've heard that same sort of reference quite a bit (calling liberals/left-wingers/etc "intellectual" or "educated"), and I always expect some other sort of more derrogatory phrase to (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) Are you kidding? Dave! (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) Not at all! The first human reaction to that which is out of our control is to control or predict it. Understand it. Particularly if it's important to us. Understanding why the grass is green, for instance, is of far less importance to (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) Well, that's a big difference! I have no more fear of the Lord of the Bible than I have of the (URL) of the Dance> (and maybe less). I similarly don't fear Bigfoot, the Easter Bunny, or Paul Bunyan. Rather than equivocating on some overlap (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) That's true, which is why I didn't say "that's exactly correct!". But in thinking about human evolution, a very early step (and not necessarily the first, depending on what you call steps versus qualifications, or transition states or (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) To be fair, you did say "I guess that's right," without disclaiming a whole lot of wiggle room. I can accept your more elaborate articuation below, but I hope you can see that my response wasn't inappropriate given your initially apparent (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) Well, my initial response was something a bit more argumentative. But when I started thinking about it, I realized there were some interpretations of the statement that I found I agreed with. So I erased my 2 paragraphs and wound up with a (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

These are the Daves I know Was some other debate —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton wrote: <snip> . Arguing is so much more fun :) (...) Do all Daves consider arguing fun? Or is that just the Daves around here? Dave K (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: These are the Daves I know Was some other debate —Rob Doucette

(...) It's better with music: (URL) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: These are the Daves I know Was some other debate —David Eaton

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Rob Doucette wrote: Hey! What's a "Rob" doing in this thread? (...) ---...--- Too Many Daves ---...--- Did I ever tell you that Mrs McCave had twenty-three sons and named them all Dave? Well, she did. And that wasn't a (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton wrote: <snip> (...) Merely because a person knows a lot about quantum mechanics or is an expert on pottery from the Ming Dynasty doesn't make them any wiser than an old hayseed from Tennessee. I mean, wasn't (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) Well, I totally agree, but that's really just saying that the two are unrelated. Which is fine. Wisdom =/= Intelligence. But I just kinda find it sad that the connatation forming on the Right is that "Intelligence = Bad/Unwise/Evil". (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) I likewise suspect that Mummert was making an attempt at irony, and the fact that he also happened to frame the issue correctly is more ironic still. The culture war, in this context, is a tiny and radical fringe that wishes to impose a (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) Or, framed another way, an overwhelming minority who wish to impose their elitist, secular beliefs on the unwashed masses. (...) See, here is the crux of the issue for me: science has the temerity to assume that it will ever come close to (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —J. Spencer Rezkalla

(...) So what exactly are you implying here - that God's got a huge mASS? Spencer (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Larry Pieniazek

(...) In lugnet.off-topic.debate, J. Spencer Rezkalla wrote: (...) C'mon, you two, stop. There is really no need, is there? You can be funny enough without the bowdlerizations, right? A guy would think you guys are trying to make me grumpy. Leave (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) No, only that He hides it well. God: "Does my mass look big in this universe?" I like big orbs and I cannot lie....:-) JOHN (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —J. Spencer Rezkalla

(...) :) lol... that's pretty good, but don't leave your Lego career for the music biz just yet! :) Spencer (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Larry Pieniazek

(...) He has a LEGO career? I did not know that! (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —J. Spencer Rezkalla

(...) Well, technically he did with the Factory Team last year?! Perhaps he still does? - with NDAs we're not really in a position to know one way or the other! Seriously though, John's one of my favorite builders. His work is always top notch. (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Good builder? Really good at microscale? Worked on the LEGO Factory project? I think you're thinking of ROSS! (I've alleged before that Ross does all the good building in that family, J2 just takes the credit...) Seriously, ya, he's not bad. (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Steve Bliss

(...) Really? I figured you'd be more the type for big books... Steve (Thompson Chain with the big red letters!) (NIV with the ribbon bookmark!) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) More into real estate. Huge....tracts of land. (...) Stylin'! JOHN (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Steve Bliss

(...) lol (...) Sorry, I may have been too obscure for some people. If you like parody, and Christian in-jokes, look and listen to the "Baby Got Book" video, here: (URL) Steve (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) Yeah, like me! (...) That was unbelievable! First of all, I'm only vaguely aware of the song. I've never seen the (original) video, but I can imagine that it has been mimicked shot for shot! How funny, and yet at the same time sad. JOHN (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) But let's be clear--that so-called elitist minority is arguing in favor of that which can be confirmed by independent observation and experiment, whereas Mummert et al are arguing that we should teach creationism because the bible says it's (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) But my point is that science cannot ever address creation because it fundamentally defies logic. God and Event#1 are synonymous. Creation demands a leap of faith. (...) I did not know that. I had read about dark matter and was shocked when I (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dan Boger

(...) This is a Hebrew proverb? I've never heard of it, I don't think. I think the bible doesn't have many sections where "fear of god" is supposed to be a good thing. Point me where it's from (book/verse), I'll look it up :) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Steve Bliss

(...) <googles 'online bible', does search> It's Proverbs 1:7. And searching for 'fear of god' turns up plenty of results, starting back with Abraham in Genesis 20:11. (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dan Boger

(...) Awesome: online hebrew version here: (URL) best I can translate it (and it is proverbs, so it's a terrible pain): Fear of God first (or primary?) knowledge wisdom and morals fools therein. Hmm. The fools part throws me off - wish I had my own (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) On that, I concur completely. It's a leap I'm not able to make, but I agree that it's central to accepting creationism as an explanation. (...) Oh, I know that. Heck, I think I know a whole lot less than you probably think I think. (...) Fair (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) I think you misunderstood me. I meant that the origin of the universe (however it came to be) demands a leap of faith. At some point, logically, something came from nothing. I don't believe it is valid to simply state that "the universe always (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) I don't think I'd consider it a dodge, really. My own thought on it is that there's no such thing as "first". The concept of time is just a perception you have that appears linear. I happen to think it's more circular in nature, without a real (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) Really? Upon what do you base that observation? Because based on all of my observations, everything known has a beginning and an end (except the existence of the universe). (...) My point was that it is UNscientific to generate a theory by (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) It's primarily based on what I know about time considering its relation to energy, and how time is actually unconstant. Also, a sneaking suspicion that time is "curved" just like everything else. Similar to how we once thought the Earth was (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Leonard Hoffman

(...) Science doesn't need to answer question for which it doesn't have enough evidence to address. According to the Big Bang Theory, one cannot ask what caused the Big Bang or where the Big Band came from, because (according to the theory), all (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Koudys

(...) Therefore science cannot encompass everything. That stated, something must exist outside of science. Let that something be God. Dave K (...) My math teacher in high school had that on his wall, along with other math related oddities. I (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Leonard Hoffman

(...) No one said that science was everything to everyone. Literature, for example, is outside the scope of science (for the time being). (...) Ahh.. see if only it were so simple. Is it a God (all powerful, omnipotent) or a god (limited (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Leonard Hoffman wrote: <snip> (...) And I would agree with the above--which God and such--all great questions. That said, the main agruement from the 'science camp' is that there can be no God because there is no proof (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Leonard Hoffman

(...) Well, to expand upon the thoughts of the 'science camp' (which, if we wanna use isms, is Mechanistic Naturalism) - we can use Occam's Razor to cut away every explanation except the most simplistic. There is no supernatural diety, the entire (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) It originated by a story about that, but I don't think anyone is defending it. It is more about a critique of Science WRT to the origin of the universe. JOHN (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Leonard Hoffman

(...) No doubt. The same way Apollo Landing denyers are a critique to History. Or Alien abductionists are a critique to Governmental policy. Or, I hate to say it(1), as Holocaust denyers are a critique to History. My point is that I have yet to hear (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) An intelligent Designer could argue that God initiated the Big Bang. How can Science disagree? It isn't possible. The study of the origin of the universe by Science is in and of itself psuedoscience. JOHN (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Leonard Hoffman

(...) Agreed. Which is why I have yet to see any science argue about events before the Big Bang(1). Those questions are best left to philosophers. -Lenny (1)= Well, not entirely true. Stephen Hawking has an interesting idea about the history of the (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) Actually, I think the technical reason is that God doesn't exist because there can be no *disproof* of God. IE, no matter what sort of tests you could set up, you'd never be able to *disprove* God's existance no matter what the outcome of (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) First of all, let's address this "Big Band" issue. I don't have much fondness for Lawrence Welk, but I guess Glenn Miller's okay. And Guy Lombardo? Don't get me started... (...) Not so fast! "Outside" is a dangerously tricky word in this (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Koudys

(...) I will state again that my God isn't the 'god of the gap', so you don't have to go looking for it. Furthermore, I didn't consign 'God' to whatever science cannot answer. If that's the interpretation then I didn't make my point clear. Let's (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Leonard Hoffman

(...) Funny. Here you argue against teleology (the world is as it is because it was {designed}) (...) And then here you finish an arguement {for} teleology. A question for you: Isn't it possible that these coincidental parts of physics (water being (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: <snip> (...) And this may be the crux of my problem with Science. Science categorically denies the existence of anything it cannot investigate. It requires proof, something that is categorically (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) I'm not comfortable with the capital "S," by the way, but I suppose that's a stylistic choice rather than a deification of "Science." But I digress... I think that that's a mischaracterization, though. Regarding something that it can't (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) It sort of bugs me when people who are referring to God not capitalize it in an attempt to somehow disacknowledge His existence, but I digress (and demote "Science" to "science") (...) I like Lenny's statement, but I think there is much (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) Oops! Did I do that? If so, I didn't mean to--sorry! I usually try to refer to the Christian deity as capital-G "God," but I know that I've sometimes included him in the rhetorical group lower-case-g "gods." I try to use the latter reference (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Leonard Hoffman

(...) "Where one cannot speak, there one must be silent." Here, we are confusing the scientific attitude with the attitude of scientists. Science doesn't take a stand on God, since the very idea, as you point out, is beyond the scope of science. (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) Sounds wise. Therefore, let science be silent on the matter of the origin of the universe. (...) But so is the origin of the universe! (which is my whole point!) (...) Only if you are claiming that they are not physical. (...) There is no (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Leonard Hoffman

(...) I don't make a statement about the origin. My statement would be: "There is not enough evidence to make an educated statement about the origin of the universe." The origin being defined as the moment(s) before the Big Bang. That statement (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Thomas Stangl

Thank you for finally admitting that Christianity is irrational. (...) -- Tom Stangl *(URL) Visual FAQ home *(URL) Visual FAQ Home (20 years ago, 17-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) I said Jesus' divinity was irrational. But what is so terrible about being irrational? Is Pi bad? JOHN (20 years ago, 17-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) Dave E and I have been discussing a point of semantics very similar to what I'm about to propose, but please bear with me... It just occurred to me that to say that one has "faith" that God and Event#1 are synonymous is not appreciably (...) (20 years ago, 1-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Allister McLaren

(...) So you agree then that creationism has no place being taught in a science class? Allister (20 years ago, 1-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) Yes, but I also contend that theories of the origin of the universe be excluded as well. JOHN (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) Which "theories of origin," though? Do you mean that the "cause" of the Big Bang should not be discussed, or that the Big Bang itself should not be discussed? If the former, then I agree with you; such philosophizing currently is not suited to (...) (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) Yes. AND specifically acknowledged as beyond the understanding of science. (...) Agreed. <faints> :-) JOHN (20 years ago, 11-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Thomas Stangl

And what, exactly, does Darwinism have to do with the origin of the *universe*? Darwinism is the origin of the *species*. So you will help fight the irrational Christians that are trying to remove Evolution from science classes, by demanding it be (...) (20 years ago, 17-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —John Neal

(...) Read the thread. (...) Perhaps you'd like to forward a "rational" explanation of the origin of the universe? JOHN (20 years ago, 17-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Thomas Stangl

I'm not discussing the origin of the universe, and neither does Darwin. The Xtians trying to remove Darwin from *science* texts are mixing the 2 up, and trying to put Creationism on the same scientific level as Evolution. (...) -- Tom Stangl *(URL) (...) (20 years ago, 19-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) I'm not sure I agree. If we found a dynamic systems model of the universe which predicted the future (and the past) with ridiculous accuracy, and used it to backtrack in time, I think it could effectively prove evolution to be accurate or not. (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —J. Spencer Rezkalla

(...) I would tend agree that is the context of the quote - fortunately, Mr. Mummert demonstrates in the article why he is not a member of this "intelligent, educated segment of the culture" by foolishly combining evolutionary theory and (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Well, OK. But the reason I found it funny is much more simple... the speaker is basically saying *he's* not intelligent or not educated, or perhaps, neither. (and you know what, I tend to think he's right... he isn't!) Didn't mean to spark a (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —J. Spencer Rezkalla

(...) Oh, I got that simpler part too - but I felt like examining the contents within the article to see if they supported it. Definitely a foot-in-mouth award is due here. :) Spencer (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) Ha! Reminds me of the poll I heard wherein some majority of people found Kerry to be more intelligent, but W to be more trustworthy. In effect, it showed that there were lots of people out there who preferred someone who was trustworthy to (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) This attitude is, unfortunately, exactly at the heart of the problem. It is abhorrent that anyone suggests that the mythology of Creationism (under whatever label) should be taught alongside a scientific theory so thoroughly confirmed that no (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) Eh, I think the counterargument goes that 1) what *you* call an "actual" scientist doesn't necessarily match what others might call an "actual" scientist 2) why should this be classified as "science"? Calling it "history" might be what (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) You're attempting to repaint the issue along purely semantic rather than functional or philosophical lines, and thereby you're casting your vote in favor of creationism. An actual scientist is someone who practices actual science, as opposed (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) I'm gonna skip down to here, because here's the meat of the argument, I think. Proof is in the eye of the beholder. *DISPROOF* is far more objective. I'm thinking of a number sequence. The first number is 1. A creationist (I'm gonna go back to (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) **snip of example** I figured that you and I had been through all this already before. Proof in scientific terms is most certainly not in the eye of the beholder, but "proof" in that context doesn't mean the same thing as "proof" in a (...) (20 years ago, 30-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) I'll hold off here-- is that what you meant to say about a scientific theory being proven? IE that no contradictions "prove" it (and accepting that it is a falsifiable theory) (...) See, there's the bit that I was getting at: "reasonable (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) That's right. I know I've mentioned it in previous debates, and I thought I'd re-mentioned here, but apparently I hadn't. (...) This dredges up math classes that I haven't had in well over a decade, so forgive me if my answer isn't rock-solid. (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) Essentially, just saying that nature throws this string of numbers at us. Not sure what it represents. We see the 1st number is 1. We have to wait 500 years to see what the next number is. During those 500 years, what do we think the next (...) (20 years ago, 31-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) ***snip*** (...) I think I gave my answer in the post to which you replied: (URL) summary, it's entirely possible that no quantity of numbers is sufficient to prove that the theory is true as long as other potentially disproving numbers have (...) (20 years ago, 1-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) sake of argument :) (...) Exactly correct, effectively. IE that any creationist must assume that at SOME point, your great-great-<insert greats here>-great-grandparents DIDN'T exist, because the generation after that was the first to appear, (...) (20 years ago, 1-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) The problem with this example, though, is that once we posit the existence of a WayBack Machine, we have allowed for time traveling marvels in our universe. What's to prevent some creationist with a WayBack machine of his own from going back (...) (20 years ago, 1-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) Well, the point is really "what if you could see into the past", not necessarily "what if you could travel to the past and do unspeakable things to temporal continuity, as great of an April Fools that would be". Again, let's say the WayBack (...) (20 years ago, 1-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) The latter option is the one that they invariably choose, and sometimes they add that the veracity of the bible is not subordinate to a conflicting reality. Alas. (...) The difference with Helga is that (barring some odd preferences on your (...) (20 years ago, 2-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Dave Schuler

(...) We've already passed this part of the debate, but I stumbled upon this article: (URL) seemed relevant. Dave! (20 years ago, 1-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —David Eaton

(...) Ha! Well, as an odd sidenote, my sophomore year of high school (when I took Biology), there was an NSTA (National Science Teachers Association) in Boston, right near my High School. And as it turns out, my bio teacher was the official head (...) (20 years ago, 1-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Yggdrasil will finally get the recognition it deserves! I'll love ramming it down the throats of all those Origins-thumping eddicated segments of society. -->Odin All-Father<-- When there's a weekday named after Darwin, you can get back to me! (20 years ago, 1-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture! —Joseph Greene

(...) You know, it's a really SIMPLE answer... God is omniscient and omnipotent and created the universe, along with it creating the rules that govern the universe. Science is the human study of the laws of the Universe, those inviolate laws set by (...) (20 years ago, 17-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)