Subject:
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Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture!
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:36:50 GMT
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Viewed:
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1377 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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At some point, logically,
something came from nothing. I don’t believe it is valid to simply state
that “the universe always existed”-- this isn’t a valid scientific
hypothesis, but a dodge.
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I don’t think I’d consider it a dodge, really. My own thought on it is that
there’s no such thing as “first”.
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Really? Upon what do you base that observation? Because based on all of my
observations, everything known has a beginning and an end (except the
existence of the universe).
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The concept of time is just a perception
you have that appears linear. I happen to think it’s more circular in nature,
without a real “beginning”. But even if it *is* linear, I’m not sure it’s a
dodge to say that it just always existed.
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My point was that it is UNscientific to generate a theory by assertion, or to
assume something not already proved.
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Effectively, what you’re assuming in the above statement is that “nothing
always existed” prior to Event #1, which has just as much proof as “something
always existed”. The assumption that nothing existed for all eternity before
something suddenly popped in there requires just as much faith.
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That’s my point-- they both require faith.
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You’re right to say that it isn’t exactly scientific, however, because at
this point I dont know if we have any evidence concerning events before a
certain point in time. Hence, to make a guess about events before that time
*is* something you’d have to base on faith. As a theory it’s not falsifiable
yet. Perhaps someday it will be, but not yet (at least I don’t think).
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Again, that is my point. Science is illegitimately (and hypocritically) taking
leaps of faith.
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Do you mean that the quote should be read as “respect of
God is the beginning of wisdom” or am I misreading you?
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No, that is exactly what I meant.
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Sort of an aside-- one idea I had long ago was that God was a cellular
organism made up of humans, or just life in general. Similar to how
mitochondria and cell nuclei are living organisms making up a cell, which in
turn make up a living being. And beyond that, there’s great examples like an
ant colony, where you’ve got cells for specific tasks, just like muscle cells
(workers), brain cells (the queen), reproductive cells (breeders), protective
cells (soldiers), etc. A living being in the form of an ant colony.
Anyway, it was rather interesting to re-read quotes about God with that
interpretation in mind. Personally, being a relative moralist, I think one of
the first steps towards being moral is acknowledging that the people around
you have desires just like yours. And just like yours, their desires have
worth. Hence, you could interpret the above quote as “respect of other people
is the beginning of wisdom”, which I might agree with. Also, things like
ethics. Who defines ethics? God? => Society. Which is effectively correct, I
think.
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Asked which Commandment was the greatest, Jesus replied, “You shall love the
Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law
and the Prophets depend on these two commandments.”
Love of God is inexorabley intertwined with regard for one’s neighbor.
JOHN
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