Subject:
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Re: We're being attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of culture!
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:42:50 GMT
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Viewed:
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1172 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
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The culture war, in this context, is a tiny and radical fringe that wishes
to impose a primitive, pre-Enlightenment doctrine versus those who wish to
embrace scientific progress and increased understanding.
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Or, framed another way, an overwhelming minority who wish to impose their
elitist, secular beliefs on the unwashed masses.
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But let’s be clear--that so-called elitist minority is arguing in favor of
that which can be confirmed by independent observation and experiment,
whereas Mummert et al are arguing that we should teach creationism because
the bible says it’s so.
But John, don’t you see that you’re just witnessing? I expect that “the
truth” to which you refer is some fundamentally unknowable truth, and to say
that science won’t ever understand it is equivalent to assuming your
conclusion, which of course is circular. All you can say for certain is that
our current tools for understanding the universe appear to be inadequate to
explain all that we can perceive; any absolute statements about ultimate
knowledge are assumptions.
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But my point is that science cannot ever address creation because it
fundamentally defies logic. God and Event#1 are synonymous. Creation demands
a leap of faith.
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Additionally, praise for the “mysteries of creation” carries no rhetorical
weight and is unconvincing to me.
We can quibble about “understanding” in this context all day long; I have a
friend who has done extensive work in 5th dimensional calculus, and I say
with some confidence that she understands five dimensions pretty well. You
might object that she’s not really “understanding” it in the way that you
or I might “understand” a 3-D sphere, but that’s a trivial difference to me.
I don’t “understand” 8-wide trains as well as you do, and you don’t
“understand” clone bricks as well as I do (despite your collusion with
Courtney). We all have different levels of understanding because we’re all
different. The deficient “understanding” of any group of people can’t be
used as an argument in favor of some higher, non-confirmable “truth.”
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Bruce H. Margon, chairman of the astronomy department at the University of
Washington, told the New York Times, “It’s a fairly embarrassing situation
to admit that we can’t find 90 percent of the universe”. This problem has
scientists scrambling to try and find where and what this dark matter is.
“What it is, is any body’s guess,” adds Dr. Margon. “Mother Nature is having
a double laugh. She’s hidden most of the matter in the universe, and hidden
it in a form that can’t be seen”.
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This is dangerously close to “quote mining,” which is a common (and
fallacious) creationist tactic. In its most basic form, the creationist
finds some scientist’s quote out of context or part of a quote and holds it
up as proof that science is therefore deficient because this one scientist
can’t remember where he left his keys (or whatever). A quick googling
reveals that Margon’s mined quote is a darling among creationist websites, by
the way.
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I did not know that. I had read about dark matter and was shocked when I heard
the percentage, and I just stumbled upon the quotation. I don’t hold it up as
any sort of “proof”; only to illustrate that we know a lot less than we think.
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But even if Margon is 100% right in his framing of the 90%, you’re still sort
of leaping from “we don’t know” to “it must be God.” This is, naturally, the
fallacious Argument from Ignorance.
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No, I never intended to make that argument, only to illustrate.
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“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.”
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The word “fear” in this context isn’t what we would normally parse it to
mean. It is more along the lines of “respect” or “awe” or “acknowledgement”.
And it is not an expectation of God, but an attitude of humility from us.
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Not trying to be funny, but are you comfortable with the term “knowledge” in
this translation? I can think immediately of two incompatible definitions,
either of which might be the one intended.
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No, as I mentioned elsewhere, “wisdom” is a better word IMO. I should go look
up the Hebrew word; maybe later.
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Also, I’ve mentioned previously that it is more humble to conclude that we
finite and temporary creatures can’t draw conclusions about infinite
omnipotent entities than it would be to say “I am certain that Christ is my
Savior and I will go to Heaven because I have accepted Him in my heart.”
That latter statement presumes to speak of absolutes that we simply aren’t
qualified to assess.
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Well, you gotta believe in something, and I believe I need to go to work;-)
JOHN
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