 | | A few things...
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I really have to stop watching CNN... (the worlds most trusted news source) K, before the CNN, let's talk about "Meet the Press" Sunday on NBC... So CP's on there, basically restating the infomercial that Dubya had a few days before, and it seemed (...) (22 years ago, 12-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes: <snip> (...) Oh, btw... off to have some french toast for breakfast, and maybe I'll have some french fries for lunch... and possibly a glass of that fine french wine with dinner tonite. Get over (...) (22 years ago, 12-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | level of debate
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(...) The text below was via an e-mail from a friend, it made me wonder just what the level of debate in the USA is. I ckecked out a couple and they appeared valid. Scott A ==+== "Going to war without France is like going duck hunting without your (...) (22 years ago, 12-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes: <snip> I heard lots of those, I do watch Letterman (yes, my CBS strike is over--I missed Letterman too much ;) )... I'm not defending Chirac... I'm defending people's rights to have an opinion which (...) (22 years ago, 12-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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(...) Well, be fair. Almost all are unattributed or from comedians. And Limbaugh is hardly an icon of thoughtful debate. That leaves Roy Blount and Rumsfeld. Nuff said... (...) (22 years ago, 12-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I've been to France last week. And I did some french-kissing... does that mean I'm taking a stand? ;-) Pedro (22 years ago, 12-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) This is why I love the French... their toast... their fries... their kissing... :) and if my SO's in a particuarly "be there for her other half..." the maid outfits... Oops--did I say that out loud? ;) Dave K (22 years ago, 12-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Holy cow. I bet it feels good to get THAT out! As an American and a Christian, I agree with (most of) what you said. I'm against this so-called "war", I don't understand why so many Christians make this a holy issue (no, really, I don't!), and (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast. A classic piece of reactionary twaddle. I didn't imagine that anyone could get me feeling particularly sympathetic towards France, but it happened. Is there such a thing as good French beer? :-) Gotta stick (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes: <snip> (...) I could give you 10,913 reasons to feel particularily *UN*sympathetic to the ingrates of France: (URL) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If it makes you feel better, I thought "Mecca Cola" was reactionary twaddle, too. :-) -->Bruce<-- (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm a Pepsi person myself:-) Although when I was in the Middle East, I was fascinated with the Coca-Cola logo as it was redesigned in Arabic and in Hebrew. It is "reproduced" in a lot of languages; I should go find a link... JOHN (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ahhh, the good ol' www...;-) (URL) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ...and french kisses! ;-) Fredrik (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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Sounds like they need to learn their history. IIRC, the French Army won the Battle of Verdun, under the heaviest shelling and most hideous battlefield conditions in history. Call that what you will, but cowardly it is not. The Germans won in 1940 (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh, yes, there is a large variety of beers produced in France. I suppose that Belgian beer is generally more famous, especially the Trappist Beer, brewed in monasteries (Orval, Leffe, Chimay, ...), but you also find similar beer tradition in (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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(...) Yep the 1930's equivalent of "star wars" was an expensive dud... [parts of it were moved to the "Atlantic Wall" IRC]. (...) French resistance: The fig leaf that covers the truth. (...) Is it not the other way around: "didn't the fledgling USA (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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(...) And that in 1940 the xenophobic US weren't in the war at all whilst the Allies were fighting and dieing for freedom against tyranny, the US didn't get into it until the end of '41, but they'll take all the credit for winning the war... History (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes: One other thing... (...) This has also been credited to Schwarzkopf, but according to www.snopes.com the correct attribution is Jed Babbin (URL) Dave! (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, I'd say Joe Steel was fighting *for* tyranny. (...) The rest of the world starts a stupid war (excuse me, *stOOpid*, can't emphasize that enough) and has us bail 'em out, and resents it? That chip on yer shoulder big enough? ;-) (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) It was something of a rhetorical question: I can find beers from all over the world in California; Germany, Phillipines, Japan, Mexico, Canada, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Holland, and on and on. None from France (that I know of). But I'd (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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(...) Are we talking about the same thing? He marched into Poland, He was on some sort of 'expansionist kick' and the 'eliminating all but the 'Supreme race'. Of course we stood up to that. I wouldn't necessarily call that stOOpid. The war with (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I never really understood *beer*, and the whole mentality with it. People love their beer. My SO loves dark beer from Europe, can't stand American beer... My friend won't drink anything besides Molson Canadian... When I was so much younger (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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(...) To Scott: That's *nuthin'!* You should see what the *other* side is doing! The Anti-war crowd for the most part are radical fruitcakes. I mean, feminists protesting *naked*???? <shudder> Wearing *pink* to protest? It's all entertainment to the (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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(...) After all the other spineless concessions... (...) Didn't listen to us at the end of the first world war, and look what came about? Oh, and what country in particular lead the way in not listening to us? StOOpidity. (...) You supported the (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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(...) Please tally all protests and render the percentage of those that took place naked. And what's wrong with pink? I mean, other than I won't be seen in it? :-) You seem to be taking the cheap-shot demonizing route in trying to belittle a (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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(...) "The anti-war crowd *for the most part* are radical fruitcakes"?? Okay. Those 100,000+ people marcning in Toronto that I was with--were most of them radical fruitcakes? Were half of them radicak fruitcakes? Were 10 percent of them radical (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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(...) <snip> (...) This I did not know--thanks. (rest for later... :) ) Dave K (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: level of debate
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(...) Be careful of using a non-representative sample to ridicule the whole, or as a basis for undermining the soundness of the argument. If certain, shall we say, unusual forms of protest have occurred, that hardly discredits the thinking of the (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A few things...
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"Bruce Schlickbernd" <corsair@schlickbernd.org> wrote in message news:HBp9n1.1x1y@lugnet.com... (...) snipped A cool Budweiser is my first choice a really hot summer day. I wouldn´t call it "beer" though, it is more like "water-with-beerish-taste". (...) (22 years ago, 15-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) I had forgotten all about (URL) freedom fries>: “It was a culinary rebuke that echoed around the world, heightening the sense of tension between Washington and Paris in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. But now the US politician who led the (...) (19 years ago, 25-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) What do you propose? JOHN (19 years ago, 25-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Certainly not marriage! What on earth are you talking about John? Scott A (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) You have something against marriage? (...) Well, you obviously don't support the war, so what would you advocate instead? That we all go home tomorrow? Or do you prefer just to sit around and complain about things? (which is your perogative, (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) To you? Yes! (...) I would not have rushed there to start with. (...) Well, given the mess people like YOU got us in, I suppose I'd start by trying to hand over power to Iraqis. I would NOT rig their constitution or setup permanent bases in (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur wrote: <snip> (...) And then we have my personal favourite rendition of 'reinventive history'-- " MR. McCLELLAN: That's all I have to update at this moment. And with that, I'll be glad to go to your (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Won't work--my family doesn't have a huge stockpile of oil. Nor did you supply me with chemical weapons in the 80's out of a criminally short-sighted sense of expediency. Nor did you all but grant me permission to invade Kuwait just weeks (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What the doddering old idiot Helen Thomas didn't get was that we are there at the request of the newly established governments of Afganistan and Iraq. McClellan wasn't talking about our initial invasions. Did I mention that Helen Thomas is an (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) What is it that you think we would do with that huge stockpile of oil? Steal it? (...) A lot of countries have them. Not many actually use them. Guns don't kill; people do. (...) Let's face it-- SH was an idiot. The guy read the tea leaves all (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Now it is I who must ask you what on earth are you talking about! (...) So, you'd advocate somehow going back in time and not rushing in. (...) The "mess" meaning liberating the Iraqis from the yoke of dictatorship? The "mess" in helping the (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) By the looks of it, Helen is one of the few who are still asking the tough questions. The rest apear to be 'bauble heads', spreading the propaganda of Dubya. I also think you missed the point where she asked if the 'newly established gov'ts' (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A few things...
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote: <snip> (...) I'm glad to see that revisionist history isn't limited to the US administration. Looks as if John has the bug as well. <snip> (...) Dave K (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) Actually, I don't adhere to that scenerio. I believe he actually was hiding WMDs and their whereabouts is still unknown. But since we haven't found any, I am willing to concede the above scenerio, which would make SH out to be an idiot. It (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) I'd suggest a little humility is in order. (...) ...and replacing it with violent anarchy. That's what I call progress! (...) Hmm. I recall reading that only ~5% of the insurgents were "foreign" and the majority of Iraqis want Bush to pack his (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) SH was not the biggest fool on the world stage. (...) You mean the "scandal" (URL) and abetted> by Washington? Who do you think bought that oil and burned it in their bloated "SUV's"... your countrymen! John, you are being played like a (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) If you humbley say so yourself? ;-) (...) Anarchy? Where are you getting your information? (...) Now I must really question your sources, because what you have just said could not be further from the truth! Virtually all if not all of the (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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Stating something is wrong and *proving* it is wrong are entirely different things, John. I don't like SA's rantings, but I also don't like the bile that often spouts from your fingers into this group. At this point, I call Put Up or Shut Up - if (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) WHAT????? You seem to have conveniently forgotten the war in Iraq was primarily to remove the "threat" of nuclear weapons and the (apparent) harbouring of terrorists, as part of the "war on terrorism". THAT is why Americans (and others) are (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) And not just farce, but expressly known to be false, months before Dubya invaded Iraq unprovoked. Dave! (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) What you seem to have never internalized is that we went into Iraq for one reason, and one reason only-- to depose SH's evil regime. We issued an ultimatum for him leave or we would make him. He didn't, and we did. He was the threat, he was (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Look, even Clinton acknowledged that SH would need to be deposed eventually. Removing him was the bottom line, even without the threat of WMDs. His mere existence was a "green light" in my mind. JOHN (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Please point me to where Resolution 114 mentions Iraqi freedom. That may (possibly, eventually) be a consequence, but it is NOT what Americans are dying for. ROSCO (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) No, there really doesn't seem to be much support in any quarter. And the remaining pro war camp is much quieter and harder to draw (apart from the determined political apologist rearguard, and the shrill cries of the mindless faithful), (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Clinton didn't propose an unprovoked invasion in defiance of the UN, and he didn't endorse the removal of inspectors before their job was done, and he certainly didn't advocate the murder of 100,000 Iraqi civilians. If removing him was the (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) Is that a rhetorical question? We are actively engaged in the process of securing a sovereign nation's natural resources for our own benefit, and this is exacerbated by the fact that our hegemonic military presence in that country is intended (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Mmmmm. This green light in your mind that allows you to do awful things with dubious grounds, and with scant care for human life. Not the green light of well thought out, systematically supported, equitable and respected authorisation I think, (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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Snipped bunches. Some I agree with (the venality of leaders everywhere, but certainly in the US) and some I don't (it's not just "about the oil!")... focusing on one bit. (...) What I'm not seeing the current participants in this debate providing is (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) Here are a few thoughts--not sure how feasible they are, and some will require greater diplomacy than is currently available to the administration. 1. Get rid of Bush. His handling of this entire debacle has been nightmarishly inept and (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Whoops! 11. Do something about Israel. No, Israel's not 100% wrong in all things, and yes, Palestinians are not without blood on their hands, either. But if we had to pick one thing (other than cultural imperialism (as opposed to militaristic (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I'm not sure I agree with any of your summary. However, think about this: If I catch you having sex with your cat; do I have to offer you an alternative in order to suggest you stop? Or is up to you to find an alternative? Scott A (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) Rubish! If it was agreed he had complied with 1441, he would have been able to stay in power. Anyhow, why start with him whilst training the (URL) Uzbek security forces> and bank-rolling (URL) Israeli belligerence>? (URL) Funded by Washington (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I thought their Nukes were French? Scott A (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Like (URL) this,> for example. Nice! Dave! (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Wow, that's almost unreadable in a newsreader... Not sure how this looked in the original submission, or how it looks in the web view, but people might want to pay attention to their postings formatting... Frank (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Hey, I'm not playing to the cheap seats. Looks fine on the web. Dave! (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) BIGOT! <okay, only kidding> (...) My point which I believe Lar picked up on is this: you expressed laments about continued support for the war. So, I asked, what should we do? Leave? You responded by saying we shouldn't have gone in the first (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) As well you shouldn't-- looked natty to me. JOHN (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Correct. Because then we would have been satisfied that he didn't have WMDs at his disposal to possibly provide to terrorists. <snip off-topic material> (...) No, Scott, it is not "clear" by any stretch of the imagination. That is your (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Personally, I prefer pin-up (URL) nose art> It still offends, but has the added bonus of (presumably) tweaking feminists:-) JOHN (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Good try John. As you (and Larry) well know, I said very much more than that. Scott A (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) What WMD's???? But John, what about those poor Iraqis and their thirst for "Freedom"? (...) You need to read Plan of Attack. (...) Even if true, he still posed no threat to the USA(?) (...) Yep, and he got them from Washington. (...) What (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) The ones the UN believed that he hadn't destroyed. (...) What about them? (...) Figures you'd cite someone like Woodward. <yawn> (...) If? That, again, is merely your uninformed opinion. (...) I don't care if he got them from Uranus, it (...) (19 years ago, 28-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) ...based on a case made by the USA. (...) Bush trusted him, why don't you? (...) No John. It is a question directed at you. I shall try again: Can you list any terror acts against the USA which SH sponsored? (...) What is the difference (...) (19 years ago, 28-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) <snipping> (...) Yes. Point? <snip> (...) Who knows? I know he aided and abetted terrorists. Whether they were the actually ones involved in terrorism against the US is anyone's guess. The point is that he was a friend of terrorism and an (...) (19 years ago, 31-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) OK; so you can't list any then. (...) So you're guessing now? (...) No doubt the Uzbeks say the same about the USA. (...) So basically, you spent billions and killed tens of thousands to help Israel hold on to illegally obtained land? (...) (...) (19 years ago, 31-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) It's all a guessing game. We played it safe and took him out for good-- something that should have occured in '91. (...) No doubt we weren't talking about them. Start a new thread. (...) To help Israel so that they wouldn't be forced to defend (...) (19 years ago, 31-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Yeah. Sure. What does a few thousand dead matter. (...) **yawn** (...) Actually John, I was highlighting your rank hypocrisy. Morally, I don’t believe it is correct for you to accuse others of murdering civilians without looking in your own (...) (19 years ago, 31-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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I know you are, but what am I? I'm not listening! Lalalalala.... I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. ...and, the ultimate retort: Nyahh, nyahh, nyahh. Sorry, I just was trying to raise the level of (...) (19 years ago, 1-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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You’ve certainly raised your level of debate. ;) Scott A (...) (19 years ago, 1-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Translation: "I know you are, but what am I?" -->Bruce<-- No, don't bother to respond, I'm not listening, lalalalalalalalala....... :-) (...) (19 years ago, 1-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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(...) I always found quoting MP was the ultimate retort, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!! WMMV JOHN (19 years ago, 1-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: A few things...
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OK. I shall use mime then: Gotcha! Scott A (...) (19 years ago, 1-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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