Subject:
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Re: A few things...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 27 May 2005 02:37:06 GMT
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Viewed:
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2578 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur wrote:
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Does anyone still support this daft war?
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No, there really doesn’t seem to be much support in any quarter. And the
remaining pro war camp is much quieter and harder to draw (apart from the
determined political apologist rearguard, and the shrill cries of the mindless
faithful), because the battle of public opinion is a lost cause.
What shocks me is that those who lead us to war have felt no sanction. Bush and
Howard are returned on stronger majorities and Blair was returned. Presumably
the fact is that while very few people think they can seriously defend the war
on principle, majorities in these three wealthy western democracies support the
invasion for reasons that do not want to see the light of day. The fact is that
if going to war was about oil, or political expediency, or just kicking the
stuffing out of the uppity autocrat, the majority of Americans, Britains and
Australians are just cool with that - either positively supportive, or
recklessly indifferent to how many Iraqi lives are lost. Welcome to who we are.
Times have changed. In Nixon’s day, bugging a political competitor was enough
to see the end of a presidency. Today, the British secret service can
bug political
competitors and no-one cares.
Most Australian’s believe that Howard and some of his senior staff lied to
inflame a refugee incident to raise support for their policy in face of a
situation that simply did not exist, but we still re-elected him.
Howard promised no more troops to Iraq and a phased withdrawal, and then after
the election we’re sending more troops and there is no withdrawal plan. Howard
made a big deal out of a medical costs safety net before the election (where
once you had spent so much on medical costs in a year, you had to pay a great
deal less for whatever else you needed), and now the thresholds have been raised
on the back of admissions that they knew before the election that the threshold
settings were probably untenable. I daresay we’d elect him again tomorrow.
This stuff isn’t the argy bargy of each political party heaping abuse and claims
of incompetence on the other. And it isn’t even simply well meaning
incompetence. These look like policies and complex campaigns built on lies,
disrespect for the people they purport to represent, and an absence of any
principle beyond the attaining and maintaining of power.
It is alarming that most of us are ok with that. I had higher expectations of
Australians. Probably even higher expectations of Americans. Having studied
Irish history, I already knew something about British behaviour when her
interests are threatened ;-)
Maybe I am just growing up late and working out the world after everyone else.
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I would not have rushed there to start with.
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I saw John’s silly time machine retort. I agree that its important to start
with this. Not everyone wanted to go into Iraq, and those that were against
were right, and we ought to be respecting this and listening harder. And we
ought to be drawing this lesson for the next time this comes up (in respect of
say, North Korea, or Syria, or Iran, or Libya, or Saudi Arabia)
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Well, given the mess people like YOU got us in, I suppose I’d start by trying
to hand over power to Iraqis. I would NOT rig their constitution or setup
permanent bases in their country. I would NOT limit the training of the Iraqi
armed forces to light weapons. I WOULD show that Iraqi lives ARE worth
something by risking lives to protect them (they are human beings after
all!). I’d STOP human rights abuses. I would NOT rely on support from (or
give support to) barbaric regimes.
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Uncommon to hear the Doc shout.
All good stuff, but academic while our majorities don’t care.
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Oh, and I’d also put B.Liar and the man-monkey on trial for breaking
international law.
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Mmmmm. As a general rule I am all for cutting leaders some extra slack for
occasional screw-ups or poor judgement in matters not related to running the
country. Its hard enough to find good people for these jobs, and ridiculous to
sacrifice them on the altar of some unattainable standard of human behaviour.
That said, I think a trial probably is warranted for all three. Its hard to
imagine how there can be secrets pertaining to the intelligence gathering that
are still worth keeping secret.
But like the Doc’s guidelines for Iraq, the fact is our majorities don’t want
them to fall, so there are so many easy ways out. I don’t think Bush for one
has ever felt bound by international law when it conflicted with his ideas of
the national interest, and he and his senior staff are quite bald about it.
Blair and Howard pay more lip service, but little else I think.
And after all, for most of us, isn’t looking after our national interest, to the
exclusion of everyone else’s interest, exactly what we have national leaders
for?
Richard
Still baldly going...
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: A few things...
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| Snipped bunches. Some I agree with (the venality of leaders everywhere, but certainly in the US) and some I don't (it's not just "about the oil!")... focusing on one bit. (...) What I'm not seeing the current participants in this debate providing is (...) (20 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: A few things...
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| (...) To you? Yes! (...) I would not have rushed there to start with. (...) Well, given the mess people like YOU got us in, I suppose I'd start by trying to hand over power to Iraqis. I would NOT rig their constitution or setup permanent bases in (...) (20 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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