Subject:
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Re: Here's one of the many things I don't understand...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:16:08 GMT
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Viewed:
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332 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> > <snip> In my opinion, we have a small responsibility to protect Europe,
> > however, those countries being in pretty good economic condition, the help
> > should mostly be in the form of mutual aid pacts, not outright
> > defense.</snip>
>
> The above is Frank's comment. I have to disagree. I don't feel we have any
> responsiblity to protect Europe. They are perfectly capable of protecting
> themselves.
At this point in time, I disagree. But in the mid-term that can happen and
probably will. Mind you, that does NOT imply in any way that Europe
automatically becomes an antagonist to the US!
> However, judging by past indiscretions, they aren't to be
> trusted to look after themselves,
???
Do you mean anything other than the collapse of Yugoslavia? Which was, by
itself, an artificial creation of WW1 not dealt with after WW2?
> and for our own sakes, its best we keep an
> eye on things (though Europeans have been doing better of late, with the
> exception of the Balkans which seems to be trying to live up to its billing
> as the powderkeg of Europe).
Yup, those countries will take a lot of effort to "get along". Anyway, who
said European Unity was a piece of cake? :-/
> > <snip> I think some support of Israel is worthwhile to the extent that it
> > would prevent nuclear war (because I have no doubt that if Israel feels
> > truly threatened that it will launch). I don't think they need as much
> > support as we are giving. I also don't think this is necessarily an
> > obligation, just a cost benefit issue.</snip>
> > Israel feeling truly threatened by a nation they've almost completely
> > destroyed? A nation that has nothing left but suicide attacks to defend
> > itself against one of the better equipped armies in the world? Give me a
> > break. Support the palestinians. Make sure no ammo of any form goes into
> > Israel, bomb Sharons village, his office, and a few random other towns in
> > Israel, just to get the situation levelled again.
>
> I'm sorry to say that I don't have much respect for the opinions you voice
> above - would you have the Netherlands engage in the activities you advocate?
>
> I would like to see some sort of final settlement made that had real teeth
> against any further disrupting party and Israel would have to give up major
> tracks of land, but let's be honest: the best way to diffuse the situation
> is for the various countries of Europe that persecuted the jews so that they
> were inspired to migrate, pay to take them back and re-establish them in
> Europe. Not gonna happen? So, as usual, the US is stuck with a mess
> created by Europe. Not that I care for what we have done with it, mind you.
Well, I suppose I agree with you in the way to solve the ME problem, as it
is today.
But I'm not sure if I find the same causes for it: IIRC, the British and the
French tried to stop Jewish migration from Europe to (what was then)
Palestine, and later the British tried hard to prevent a Jewish State in
Palestine. Had the intentions of the British been accomplished in '47, and
the present day problem would have totally different contours. In the end,
it was the failure to implement a *secular* federal state in Palestine that
meant 50+ years of conflict; and that failure was NOT due to European lack
of will.
That said, it's never too much to remind that Europe's doors are open.
> > Attempt 1: We want our spies back in your country to check on you. You're
> > gonna refuse, and that'll allow me to pick a fight with you.
> > Oops, they let the spies in...
>
> Guess they shouldn't have agreed to let them in in the first place. Spies
> are covert, inspectors aren't.
>
> > Attempt 2: Our spies want to look everywhere and talk to everyone so we can
> > uncover your secrets. You won't cooperate, so there's another reason to pick
> > a fight.
> > Oops, they are cooperating. Maybe not fully, but good enough for the rest of
> > the world.
>
> The Neville Chamberlain syndrome (convincing yourself that they are
> cooperating enough). But despite that, I think the efforts are better spent
> elsewhere.
>
> > Attempt 3: So I can't prove that you have evil toys. Let's turn this around:
> > you have to prove that you don't have them. You can't, so I can finally have
> > my war!
>
> Maybe Bush actually did study: the Austro-Hungarian solution to Serbia
> agreeing to all it's terms. Just declare war and drag all your allies in
> with you, kicking and screaming.
That's really not that funny in countries with conscript armies, like my
own. It becomes even LESS fun once you know our PM decided to sign a letter
of blind support of US policy WITHOUT the authority for it, nor public support.
It's disturbing for me to think after 29 years of democracy the time to vote
with the feet may be down the road again :-(
I only find it pathetic that this war is meant to overthrow a dictator who
has been in power for the past decades, and is likely to die of natural
causes in the next ten years. Patience is the key, IMO: in the
(more-than-likely to happen) chaos that will follow Saddam's death, it will
be a lot easier to establish democracy *without* a large scale war involving
foreigners. Just support the "best" faction in the struggle for power.
Ta-daa! :-)
The whole thing just stinks of vendetta this side of the Atlantic...
Pedro
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