Subject:
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Re: Thinking Out Loud...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:45:22 GMT
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Viewed:
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306 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Eric Kingsley writes:
> > I try to be a pacifist: as Richard says, it's a position that's only really
> > challenging when war looms. The more I think about it the more I am
> > convinced that any military offensive in the Middle East will be a grave
> > mistake, morally as well as logistically and politically. Homicidal maniacs
> > need to be subdued and murderers need to be prosecuted, preferably in an
> > international forum. But should civilians die because their country shelters
> > a war-mongering born-again former playboy? The assault on the people of the
> > United States was wrong: an attack on the people of Afghanistan would also
> > be wrong.
>
> I have to jump in... What do you think pacifism at a time like now is going to
> get us? All it will get us is more innocent Americans (among others) killed.
> Do you think these people are just going to stop now? Do you think if we say
> "Please don't do that again" that they will listen?
I'm sure that we'll see more civilians die at the hands of fanatics, and I'm
sick to the guts at the prospect of a terrorist nuke or deliberately seeded
epidemic. I don't know when it will end. I don't think politeness works with
insane hatred, but I don't think bombs work either.
> For goodness sake (I am really trying to stay in control here),
I truly, truly appreciate this, and I don't think the emotional intensity is
going to go away. It's another thing that's changed for all of us, maybe for
a long time.
> I don't think we should just bomb the heck our of any country and kill innocent civilians
> but I do think our military, whether that be bombs, special opps, or full scale
> invasion is required and unfortunately when that happens innocents will more
> than likely get in the way.
If it is required (and let's pray the Taliban hand over bin Laden before it
is (see http://salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/18/kakar/index.html )), I
agree that those vicariously responsible should be captured, and I don't
think they'll come quietly. But ask the Russians how feasible it is to
invade Afghanistan.
> > Be angry about last Tuesday's murders, and have the courage not to seek
> > revenge. People might also consider signing the petition at
> > http://www.9-11peace.org/petition/ .
>
> There is a difference between revenge and justice and I think that is what the
> government is looking for. That does not mean that we will see bin Laden on
> trial, my guess is that at best we will get a body. (The Dead part of "Dead or
> Alive"). To me that would be a start of getting justice, unfortunately it
> doesn't end with bin Laden.
Whre does it end? And where do you cross the line between justice and revenge?
> My take is that if we do nothing the Terrorists will keep terrorising and more
> Americans (and others) will die. If we fight the terrorists will probably get
> a few more attacks in as well. So in the short term I think we can expect more
> terrorist attacks. In the long run, with a strong and focused military agenda
> we will prevail.
I don't share that confidence. I read that the total cost of last Tuesday,
to the aggressors, was probably less than $1 million (and their lives). This
could be a global guerilla war that brings fear and death to every free
nation. It might be, and I think if it is answered with violence it is bound
to be. Terrorism is a hydra: the sword that spills blood will make it multiply.
> This is a time for action not pacifism. I love peace as much as anyone, and
> that is exactly why I think we need to do whatever is necessary to remove the
> threat of terrorism from the face of the earth.
Of course I agree. I happen to believe in the overwhelming power of
non-violent action.
--DaveL
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Thinking Out Loud...
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| (...) I have to jump in... What do you think pacifism at a time like now is going to get us? All it will get us is more innocent Americans (among others) killed. Do you think these people are just going to stop now? Do you think if we say "Please (...) (23 years ago, 18-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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