 | | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) If the claim is made that our state charter is founded on ideals dating to the birth of humanity, then evidence must be given to support that claim, or else it is a doctrine of religious faith (and an attempt to unite the state and religion). (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) Can you prove that those ideals predate Judeism or the roots thereof? Show me some documented proof, not scientific theories. Even the great Stephen Hawking is recanting one of his most cherished theories today. (...) Just as the state's (...) (20 years ago, 21-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) OK, what if it's equally valid to claim pagan-animist value system and governance because those are the antecedent of Judaism? (...) But since several of the thinkers of the time were openly hostile to religion in general and clearly not (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) Before I attempt this documentation, can you give me an idea of what would qualify as acceptable to you? Honestly, a scientific theory that can be falsified is, as an explanatory device, superior to non-falsifiable statements of faith, so I (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) Truthfully? I'm not sure you can, in much the same way that it's currently impossible to disprove the existence of ET life in the universe. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of using unprovable statements to disprove other unprovable (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) You'd need to prove conclusively that this is the case. The New Testament is proof enough that Christianity evolved directly from Judeism, just as the Koran is proof enough that Islam did as well. The Old Testament doesn't claim to have (...) (20 years ago, 22-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) I was actually unaware of Franklin's claimed opinion on Judaism. But anyway, what about the evidence that hasn't been debunked? (...) Here's the thing. You claim that our culture has a powerful J-C influence because (I think) of the (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) It is necessary to distinguish between "scientific proof" and "literal proof" in this context. Scientific proof is established when all observable data are consistent with theory and prediction. Literal proof is established only when something (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) So was I, but it appears to be white-supremecist propoganda, so... (...) Trumped by virtue of the fact that there were movements to include specific mention to Christianity (if not any particular denomination thereof), while there don't appear (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) That's scientific theory. Proof requires that you can difinitively show that the opposite is not true. Science has thusfar failed to do so in regards to the metaphysical origins of the universe. (...) I can to the extent that we can trace the (...) (20 years ago, 23-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Gosh, you haven't even begun to see me zealous. :-) (...) And the SC had the opportunity to make a ruling supporting the common man's stance on the wording of the pledge and chose to stick to the limited legal point. While I agree with their (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) Chalk this part up to miscommunication, then. And for the record, I certainly don't believe that any "rights" are truly inherent and undeniable (inalienable). (...) Science may be a flawed tool, in the same way that the Constitution is a (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) Unless I'm missing something you're assigning a causative relationship between religious background and the commonality of "rights" and other(?) socio-legal constructs. In effect, you're saying that these notions of rights are demonstrably not (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Does that make you an (URL)? (...) Get yourself some open toed sandals. ;) Scott A (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Only to the extent that all sane atheists are also agnostic. In other words, I don't think so. I'm comfortable with the assumption that there are no supernatural phenomena based on the (lack of) evidence. I'm just reasonable, too. Chris (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) What's wrong with "agnostic"? (...) This sounds closer to atheism-- IE you believe in not-the-Christian-god. In my experience with agnostics, they often reject one (or multiple) religions, but are 'undecided' about the rest: "I don't know what (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) I dislike that term because it's often seen as too wishy-washy, or a way to hedge one's bet. It can also carry a connotation of undecidedness, due not to a lack of evidence but a lack of conclusion. Additionally, if you say "I'm an agnostic" (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) I definitely agree-- to be agnostic is really to be undecided. And if you really simply "don't believe in God", but *would* if given sufficient reason, then I'd say agnostic matches pretty well. (...) Hmmm. Not really. I guess I see a (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Firstly, I think "common man" is a bit inappropriate here, since it very inaccurately suggests that the majority of Americans are opposed to pledging "Under God" (remember that many non-church-goers still consider themselves to be religious). (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) You are missing something. Just because a "right" is not universal does not mean it is therefore exclusive. I cannot deny that the US Constitution could have come out of another religious background, but I can deny that it actually did. You (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) But the Declaration of Independance states that our founding fathers did. (...) Some are more mutable than others, particularly in Minnesota. (...) I don't remember ever hearing anyone else credited with a similar statement. It was a dangerous (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) I don't see why a true agnostic would have any problems with answering that. It's the next question that's the problem (What do you mean you don't know?). (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) Not the way I understand what an agnostic is. An agnostic holds that the ultimate truth about God existing or not existing is not knowable. That's not undecided, though many undecided people misuse the term "agnostic" to describe themselves. (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) For the sake of a disclaimer I should probably underscore that my use of "undecided" in this context was to address a popular connotation of the word agnostic, rather than a literal denotation. Dave! (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) You mean that you understand the correct and incorrect usage but are willfully contributing to the further incorrect usage? ;-) 00>Bruce<01 (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) Huh! I guess I've never really investigated the meaning; rather I've just gone by how people use it (which, for philosophic terms, I'm more inclined to doing anyway, and reject outright whatever a dictionary says if it tells me differently (...) (20 years ago, 26-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Actually, I think you need to reread what I wrote. I think the common man's stance is that the POA is fine as is. That's what the court could have asserted. (...) And this "difference between belief and fact" is what you're claiming underpins (...) (20 years ago, 27-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) I think it's more accurate to say that our founding fathers believed rights to be inherent to some people, but they had no problem in accommodating slavery and the denial of women's suffrage. These aren't trifling matters, either--the founding (...) (20 years ago, 27-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) Careful, don't fall into the trap of thinking they were of one mind on everything. I fall into this trap a lot myself. The D of I, the articles of confederation and the constitution are held by many to be compromise documents, particularly in (...) (20 years ago, 27-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) That's true, of course--they were distinct individuals with distinct ideas. My intent, though, was to show that the document they brought to the table allowed the denial of rights to certain groups for the most mundane and terrestrial of (...) (20 years ago, 27-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) Agreed. Although I do go into "FF worship mode" here from time to time (no, really??), they certainly had feet of clay just like everyone else. (...) Good question in turn. Taking that a bit further, what would have happened in Britain? Would (...) (20 years ago, 27-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) Did the IR not also make the slave trade economical by inflating the price of slaves? Scott A (...) (20 years ago, 27-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution
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(...) To be fair, slaves and women were seen more as property than people by many of the colonists, and they basically inherited the idea that political rights were tied to landownership from England. But if you were a white male landowner in the (...) (20 years ago, 27-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Whoops, I did misread what you wrote. Anyways, the bit about the Bush v. Gore Florida ruling still shows that they have no problem turning you away on a mere technicality, but then deny your claim later. And you know what? I'm perfectly okay (...) (20 years ago, 28-Jul-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) I would question whether you mean "religion" or "God" here. Faith in religion is what I call "Churchianity". It's no better than superstition, like athletes who always go through the same routine before the race starts. As a Christian, I have (...) (20 years ago, 14-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) I meant a little of both. Some denominations are less tied up in religious rituals than others (RCA vs Roman Catholicism, for instance), and just because you don't follow a particular denomination doesn't mean that you don't have your own (...) (20 years ago, 15-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) What is the nature of this relationship? Do you and God go out for pizza together? Who picks up the check? My example is admittedly facetious, but the underlying question is sound. Do you consider yourself to have a "relationship" with anyone (...) (20 years ago, 17-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) A very big question in few words! The relationship is multi-faceted and includes the following things: Saviour: how you relate to someone who has saved your life by sacrificing theirs. Father: including support, protection, provision and love. (...) (20 years ago, 17-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Absence of faith in something leads to faith in nothing. If you didn't understand rudimentary celestial mechanics, you would continue on with no faith that _tomorrow_ that sun was just not going to rise. Every time someone told you that (...) (20 years ago, 18-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) In the face of inconsistent sunrise results, you might decide that the celestial mechanics were invalid and that you cannot prove whether the sun will rise tomorrow, thus being agnostic. If the results were consistently wrong, you would just (...) (20 years ago, 18-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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Hello! Sorry for chiming in but this topic sounds interesting. Of cóurse I didn't read the whole thread so please ignore my post if its a repost of the contents. (...) How about The Life™? I can't believe that's just the result of a thunderbolt (...) (20 years ago, 18-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Hello Jojo: By all means, feel free to chime in. That's what the forum is for! Regarding the thunderbolt & amino acids, you're referring to Miller's experiments in the 1950's. These experiments revealed much that was promising, though they (...) (20 years ago, 18-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism
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(...) Ferget about that one. I'd actually be more worried that someone does re-enact that in a lab before we're prepared for the consequences. And not so long ago you may have said the same thing about just the thunderbolt part. How 'bout this? What (...) (20 years ago, 18-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Isn't that something like comparing an individual's ability to reproduce the complete works of Shakespeare from memory with a fleet of monkeys being able to randomly bang them out on typewriters? (...) It would be more significant if he'd (...) (20 years ago, 18-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Your analogy is a rather poor one, because you imply that either sentient capabilities are required to assemble a complex form directly from simple parts or a (complex) assembler would have to be randomly generated. First, most abiogenesis (...) (20 years ago, 19-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) For a thorough debunking of the "infinite monkeys" myth, I recommend Richard Dawkins' book "The Blind Watchmaker," which gives a great explanation of why that model is flawed as a representation of evolution or of the origins of life. Beyond (...) (20 years ago, 19-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Surely the models can be allowed to evolve. Then models with God as the designer can be compared with models without a designer and the results compared. i.e. you can determine for yourself whether it makes more sense for there to be a God who (...) (20 years ago, 19-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) However, you have to consider the fact that the experiments were performed already knowing such compounds existed, whereas the billions of years of evolution probably had no such knowledge. ROSCO (20 years ago, 19-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Evolution... it never ends
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(...) You are free to suggest any model or theory you want. But if you want to challenge an existing scientific model, then you need to present an alternative SCIENTIFIC model. So far no one has presented a scientific model for intelligent design. (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution... it never ends
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(...) Forgive me if I'm wrong, but is the point of Creation (and religion) not that it needs no "SCIENTIFIC model"? It is a simple solution to a complex question: “What am I ?”. (...) My body hair, nipples, appendix and coccyx all appear to have no (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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hello! (...) Great! In this case I come up with another provocative thesis: If there was no God that gave Life™ this life wouldn't have any value at all. In that case life was just matter that accidentally interachts in a way predetermined by laws (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) In order to test your suggestion, I must ask that you present to me something in nature that, in your judgment, was not designed by God and also something that, in your view, *was* designed by God. Are you able to provide examples of each? If (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) You've set up your claim as a one-premiss argument: P1: God did not create Life ---therefore---...--- C1: Life has no value However, this statement is true only if and only if life's value must be injected by an outside agency, be it God or (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution... it never ends
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Do you have a "not so well designed" case (...) I do, teeth! if they were well designed they would be made of something that is not affected by food! Tim (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution... it never ends
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(...) They are all (excepting nipples) vestigal remnants of things that were useful in the past (warmth,digestion,tail). The original need for those things has disapeared and in fact they have proved better not to have so natural selection has bred (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) I think the common misconception is that most normal people can't understand why they care about things. IE "Why do I care if spotted owls become extinct? Why do I care if someone I don't know gets tortured?" Notice, it's not "Why *should* I (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) God was always threatening to do that anyway, so that's nothing new... God: Wars, torture, greed, stupidity, short-sightedness, vanity...I've put up with these forever and still haven't brought things to an end. But these humans have gone too (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Evolution... it never ends
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(...) Of course, which is why such "solutions" have no place being taught in a public science classrooms. They belong in church instead. Keep in mind this is pretty much an issue being driven by Creationists - not all religious people in general. (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd wrote: (snip) (...) You lost me at "Final Fantasy", GEDA (not to be confused with "Yoda"-- AFAIK). I am not a "Gamer", (not to be confused with a "Goer" -- Are you uh, uh a Goer?), so I may need a (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) "God not only plays dice, he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen." -S.Hawkins -Any role-playing Game-Master Perhaps you should get religion and become a gamer. :-) Divine revelation and interpretation: The Green-Eyed Devil's (...) (20 years ago, 20-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd wrote: (snip) (...) Isn't he that guy who is lousy at winning bets? (...) Well I have a tough enough time IRL so I'm not privy to this world. Perhaps that is why there are such things? :-) (...) I'm (...) (20 years ago, 21-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Actually, considering he has been rolling dice with death for 40 years and surviving, I'd have to disagree with that. (...) You weren't paying attention. :-) (...) "Doom of the Gods." Gotterdammerung, but I don't remember how to spell that. (...) (20 years ago, 21-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Atheism (was: Santorum Fails In His Effort To Pervert The Constitution)
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(...) Good point. Of course, I was intimating to (URL) this>. (...) Sorry, I have a cold. ;-) (...) lol Some help Google™ was! I was (URL) HERE!> Guess I need to bone up on the ol' Norse Mythology! (...) You obviously never saw PYTHON. I bought the (...) (20 years ago, 22-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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