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(...) No that would not end our society as we know it. It would go a long way toward restoring the government though. At the very least we should try to go back to the pre-FDR days. Ask your grandparents about how the elected representatives used (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In the interest of furthering my understanding, are you talking about the same time period in which civil rights were non-existent, Presidents could serve an unlimited number of terms, the securities industry was wholly (and tragically) (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) As Rodney might say, "tough crowd"-- it's almost as if people think the idea isn't all half bad:-) (...) I see your point, but even if we were able to go back, it would certainly have a profound effect upon society *as we know it*. But how (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) While I agree with the trend of your note as a whole -- times have never been perfect and nostalgia is often silly, This one point seems weird. I would rather that people have the ability to trick me losing my money than to take it from me at (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Ok, I was refering to the operation of the Government, not the social changes that occured between now and then despite the government's best efforts to the contrary. See maybe we have a slight difference of opinion here. I see the Government, not (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You may freely assert that point, but you must also document it, and you should also document how things would have been better without government intervention. The examples I gave: (...) are not social changes (with the exception of the (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I presume you're talking about the government in the latter case, but can you rephrase that without the "at gunpoint" phrase? There's no initiation of force involved; it's simple enforcement of social contract. You may disagree with the (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) False. Contracts are things agreed to by both parties. I was never given a choice to reject taxes and the attendant benefits. I am no more _morally_ bound by this "social contract" than were the Africans enslaved in the south through their (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How does one exit? What if the contract was abrogated by one side (the side with the big guns)? (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, explain how it was abrogated (in legally specific terms) and then file suit. Otherwise, leave the country and renounce your US citizenship. Dave! (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Then they will discover the power of democracy. ;) Remember Bush’s "Read my lips" promise? Scott A (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That is absolutely true. (...) By remaining in the country (and partaking of the benefits of government programs) you have willingingly entered the contract (or your parents entered you into the contract, which you must take up with them). (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think there's a big difference b/w the two--in your case, the services you receive via 'your tax dollar' aid you as well as your fellow man. Sure you were 'born into' the agreement, or 'moved into' the agreement when you become a citizen of (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What do these goods have to do with taxes? Except for the second order effect of a legal framework to protect contracts, that is. There's no reason any of these have to be government provided. You picked the wrong goods to praise government (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This ia always an interesting quandry. The contract has always been viewed as new-generation-enforcable, but is that correct? Are you bound by your parent's contract (or as far back as necessary to either the original constitution or your (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) the (...) Which resolved regardless of the the attempts to stop it. (...) So? That is why we have an election. (...) So? Who's fault is it if they lose everything gambling on the securities industry. (...) Also resolved despite efforts to the (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Excuse me? In many cases it was forcibly resolved by the Federal Government. (...) As was demonstrated in 2000, the will of a majority of the people is not necessarily reflected in the election process. (...) You misunderstand--brokers (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Right, and the "taxes" paid by the slaves -- in the form of 100% of their productivity -- aided them as well as their fellows. They were fed, clothed, and housed without ever having to worry about those things. And in some cases, the system (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You've got to stop using the slaves as an example, because you're hurting your argument. The slaves were forcibly removed from their homeland and forcibly kept at work here as property. They had no opportunity to renounce citizenship and leave (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And I pay my taxes and vote my concience. I just think it's messed up to call it a contract. It's a dodge. I'd be happier if we just enunciated the fact that we are partially or sort-of owned by the state. As long as they control our right to (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Rather than simply asserting that it is not a contract, you must demonstrate why it is not a contract. You can't just say "it's a dodge" and pretend to have refuted it. (...) The slaves who were freed (and thereafter remained in the US) (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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What are the criteria used to determine if an analogy is adequate? No analogy will be perfect because it isn't the exact situation that is being discussed. It is a tool used to point out certain particular similarities that are important to the (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) As I said, morally you may be correct, but practically, I see no better way to proceed. It's not an ideal contract, because you are bound by your predessor's contract, not one you made for yourself. I must admit I categorically reject the (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh, come on. An analogy is inadequate if the salient characteristic likened between the two subjects is fundamentally distinct, as in the case of a slave who cannot leave the US and a citizen who can freely expatriate (and renounce that same (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The problem is there's no free market in governmental systems at the moment, and the present players collude to keep it that way. (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That doesn't really address the topic at hand (and perhaps that was your intent). -->Bruce<-- (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I would surmise that "Fre Market" and "Governmental Systems" are exclusive. There has to be oversight to "Free Market" in order to maintain the safety and health of those involved in the Free Market system--hence Gov't. I live in a reasonably (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The market is plenty free--we have 200+ nations to choose from! The fact that no nation has arisen to suit the desires of every last person is irrelevant. That's the market in action. Dave! (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sure it does. You can't argue that we have the right of choice if there's no free market (of ideas, or of systems) to choose from, except unless you argue that we have to lump the choices, constrained as they are by the International (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sorry, David, you were reading too fast. You missed the point. I speak of a marketplace*of* ideas themselves, a marketplace IN government systems. But be that as it may, past reading in this group will show that I don't agree that government (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If it is being tampered with, then it isn't free. Or is that what you meant? (...) Building codes also prevent a wide array of construction techniques that are cheaper and safer because the building industry is entrenched in the code setting (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) There are sufficiently high barriers to entry (the 200+ nations collude together to prevent new entrants) that your assertion that "the market is free" is false, Dave! (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Who is comprised of people just like you and me. There is nothing magical about the Federal Government compared to any other group of concerned people. I would also point out that the government didn't do very much to stop the abuse until (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How so? Do you mean we're not free to form a new nation, or that we're not free to move from one to the next? In some cases, the latter is certainly true, but that's just the market in action; different types of product are available, with (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Preface: Plowed ground alert. I probably shouldn't have posted a flurry of responses, just summarised and let it go. This has been discussed before at length. That said, onward. (...) Not in and of itself. But if you had a grand scheme for a $1000 (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think you simply couldn't resist an opportunity to invoke Dave! (...) I may be misunderstanding the question, but let me try with a hypothetical stab at it. Suppose you and a group of like-minded individuals locate and claim a previously (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think Larry is referring to the constraints of the monopoly of the 2 party system in America. As I have in the past, I see nothing wrong with joining one of the 2 parties and working for change *within* that context instead of trying to (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Does such an island exist? As far as I can tell, all land on this planet is either claimed by some particular government (and thus ought not to be hived off without the acquiescence of that government, or of the landowners or at least of (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Alas, that's just the way it goes; do you think that in a government-less world that wouldn't be the case? I want the free market to cough up a free place for me to live, but the free market doesn't do that any more than the current situation (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Because others do things in a way that doesn't adhere to the "Too high" standard that the almighty United States sets for the rest of the world... I'll stick with Canada, where new political party(s) can spring up overnight, and long standing (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'll let the market (of ideas) decide. Oh wait, it did! You lost, Dave! (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Really? Then why can I only choose from a field of one cable company in my area? Dave! (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Because you have a coercive monopoly. A government granted that company a monopoly... But you know this already, Dave! What are you up to? (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, seriously--why is that? One cable company--I hate that. I don't want to go to satellite 'cause then I lose my internet connex, and I dislike High Speed dial-up, etc. But every few months, my cable bill goes up a couple of dollars, even (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You seem to be confusing between choosing from what's available, with having a right to choose from what's available, with somehow expecting that you should be offered whatever happens to suit your fancy. So, yes, I can argue it. (...) I'm not (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sorry if I haven't been clear. I don't have any expectation that the market will provide me whatever I fancy, in this market or any other. What my expectation is, though, is that for it to be a free market, there cannot be unreasonable (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Allow me to repeat this yet again. The percentage of votes that Gore supposedly won the nation wide popular vote by was less than the percentage of votes bush won in Florida by. Both numbers are well within the margin of error. However the (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike: A lot of us believe the election was rigged in Florida by thousands of votes months before the election took place. (URL) am no friend to Gore or to his psycho wife Tipper -- I just want to know that we had an honest election, and we did not. (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm still not getting where you are going with this, Larry. Free market of governments? What in the world does that have to do with inheritable contracts as a system of stable (or coercive) government? Unreasonable coercive barriers to entry (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) for their actions but probably won't. (...) For the record, I voted for Bush Jr. simply because I felt he was the least unquaified at the time. Gore just plain scared me, whereas Bush simply came off as stupid. -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ah, who knows? I think it bears far greater investigation but our press is asleep at the wheel. I can't even watch CNN anymore, and is Fox is a bloody joke. There's still some hard-hitting stuff on the web, but you have to dig a little -- (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I wonder how well that would really work, or do you mean I should have my own generator for the winter months when solar is unlikely to provide the power I need. I think electric plants are far more efficient than a generator could be (and of (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Right, but that's just a recount of the accepted votes, and it doesn't factor in the irregularities in ballot format, the use of obsolete machines in democrat-friendly districts, the unlawful removal of legal voters from the voting registries, (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In each case I advocated shooting someone they either would have or did cause physical harm or were violating basic freedoms. Disagreeing with someone (...) Politicians only went to washington when there was actually something that needed (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Care to finish that thought? But even without the finish I can take issue with your point. You're advocating the preemptive murder of people whom you perceive to violate your basic freedoms, am I right? Doesn't that sound a trifle insane to (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I can vouch for the disparagement of solar power in CA where there is bill either under consideration or that has been passed that allows PG&E to "tax" an individual's non-use of the utility when that individual is using alternative energy (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Wow, that *is* pretty lame. By that logic, they could charge dead people for their non-use of food, air, and water. Dave! (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Estate taxes? =) -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Zing! Good one! JOHN (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) fire? (...) is not grounds for shooting them. (How did that happen?) (...) a (...) there (...) You misunderstand due to me not being more clear in that post. She was attacked by 7 different people. After the first 4 she bought a gun which was (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Good modern photovoltaics pay for themselves in ~13 years and last ~20 years. Because they're modular, you can scale your installation easily to provide far in excess of the power you need. Or am I misunderstanding your meaning? (...) You just (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Pelton wheels, photovoltaics, hydro, biomas and marine current [not the "war"]
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(...) Not in Scotland; here photovoltaics & wind power are predictably unpredictable. We are taking a centralised broad-spectrum approach to renewables: hydro, biomas, wind and marine current power. Right now about 10% of our power needs come from (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Before someone points out my error, I should have describe the woman's actions as "second degree murder" rather than "third degree murder." I'm reluctant to address the specifics of your story in case further details should be revealed as we (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Indeed, whole countries have been invaded [allegedly] on that basis. :-\ Scott A (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ouch! Down goes Fraser! He'll be reeling after that hit! Dave K (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have to say, I could not agree more with this point. Searching for legal loopholes to justify highly questionable in/actions is a major annoyance to me. The UK's use of cluster bombs in Iraq [anti-personnel bombs in all but name] is an (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) attacked (...) registered (...) be (...) Oh trust me, if I could find a link I would post it. It was in the local paper about 2 or 3 years ago. I can not claim to remember everything and if you want to analyze it I don't blame you one bit. I (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The most damning part of this tale isn't given; was the woman sentenced or acquitted? (...) I appreciate your candor and your understanding of my skepticism. I still have trouble believing that the case could have been gagged or swept under (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) or (...) she (...) neccessary (...) I don't remember for sure but I don't think she was acquitted. (...) It has happened before. You won't find this in any paper... I know a women who's 70something year old neigbor was sentenced to 25 years in (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This subthread got a start when someone said "if you don't like it (that you inherited a contract), vote with your feet". Perfectly valid statement. What I was trying to point out was that it is not a perfect solution. Life isn't perfect, of (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) News Flash--nothing is perfect. Not to bring religion into it, but we live in a fallen world. Beyond the religions scope, Democracy is the 'lesser of all evils". Heck, you and I don't even live in a pure democratic society, and basically used (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Stand your ground (ie., go ahead and shoot)
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(...) What had been a primarily theoretical debate for Mike and me has turned into policy in the great state of Florida: (URL) the kicker--now you can shoot someone in the street just because you *feel* threatened! So when that apparently middle (...) (19 years ago, 6-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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