Subject:
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Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds"
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:29:40 GMT
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Viewed:
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905 times
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Scott E. Sanburn wrote:
>
> Frank Filz wrote:
> >
> > Scott E. Sanburn wrote:
> > > As I have said before, my issue is not with testing, it is with
> > > affirmative action, and the thought that minorities are too stupid to
> > > take certain tests. I have a problem with that, simply because there are
> > > stupid and smart people in every race, culture, etc.
> >
> > Ok, if the only discussion is about affirmative action, tell me, do you
> > believe that currently blacks and women as general classes of people
> > have the same opportunities as white males as a general class of people?
>
> Some do and some don't, just like everyone else. It depends on their
> life choices, etc.
Your evading the question. I asked about "disadvantaged" minorities as
classes. I am quite aware that INDIVIDUALS of every "disadvantaged"
minority have been extremely successeful. My question is do you think
that blacks as a whole have the (roughly) same opportunities as white
males as a whole? Answer the question.
> > If you do, then what is your explanation for why women and blacks get
> > paid less for the same jobs,
>
> That is debatable, but if they get paid less, that's something for the
> EEOC to look at.
Of course from a Libertarian perspective the EEOC shouldn't exist, but
we aren't arguing what should happen in a Libertopia since in a
Libertopia, companies are free to chose their employees however they
wish to.
> > and blacks in particular are
> > underrepresented in better paying jobs, as a percentage of blacks?
>
> To who? Does every job category have to have x this, y that, etc.? What
> do you want, Frank?
No. I don't expect perfect equity, but until the current disadvantaged
minorities are mostly equally represented in all tiers of jobs,
individuals are going to have more problems than individual white males.
How often have you been stopped by a cop because he thought you didn't
belong where you are? How often does that happen to blacks (or do you
think they're just making up stories when they are surveyed and found to
ON AVERAGE have been stopped by a cop for no apparent reason)?
> > If the reason is that their families don't step up to the plate to
> > properly encourage them, what is your proposal to give the kids the
> > opportunities their parents don't?
>
> People that aren't responsible enough to raise their children should not
> have children. I chose not to have kids.
What do we do with the kids which do happen? Do we just consign them to
become criminals? Do you want to be spending as much money on prisons as
we do? Why are blacks overwhelmingly represented in prison?
> > Also, please explain how these minorities can overcome the long history
> > of being treated as less capable?
>
> There are so many opportunities out there for everyone, I have seen it
> time and time again. I don't treat anyone as less capable, I work with
> minorities in many different jobs, so I know they are smart enough to do
> anything. As a matter of fact, there are a lot of stupid white people
> out there.
>
> > I think this DOES have an impact.
>
> Well, I can't change human behaviors, I can only act and influence
> others. I don't, I think it is stupid for people to do that.
>
> > I
> > think the greatest indicator for success is the level of success of
> > one's parents. If one's parents (or their parents, or their parents)
> > were slaves (in the case of blacks), how do you expect to break the
> > chain WITHOUT doing something for them that you don't do for whites?
>
> Slavery ended, what, about 150 (give or take) ago? There are programs
> out there, go to Flint, Michigan, and ask. I know there are. What do
> suggest, BTW, Frank?
Of course things like the Jim Crow laws were only abolished 30-40 years
ago, so the majority of blacks who are in the job market, who grew up in
the south, have parents who were constrained by the Jim Crow laws.
What kind of "programs" are their in Flint MI, and what makes them ok,
and the alternate testing not ok?
> > And don't just answer that affirmative action is bad. You need to
> > propose solutions, or explain how your world view results in a better
> > system, or explain why the problems of minorities aren't real.
>
> It is bad, it is racist, and goes against everything this country stands
> for. What proposal could I provide that you would like, Frank? Nothing
> matters here, if it goes against the leftist mentality, no one likes it.
> I never said there are no problems for minorities, but there are
> numerous problems that everyone, including minorities, that they do
> themselves. Looking strictly at quotas and others, IMO, are bad, whether
> you like it or not. Until we can really look at the problems and issues,
> I will think that, I don't have a perfect solution, but I know one
> thing. Affirmative action benefits mostly white females. We need to look
> at the program, and decide what to do with it. Most court cases are
> ruling against it, and I think it is a good thing. Racism, even against
> "evil white males", is wrong, and should not be supported.
I happen to think quotas are bad also. I think looking at alternate ways
to determine if someone is qualified is good though. What colleges and
employers want is qualified people. If the system gives them qualified
people, what is wrong with it? If a given "test" gives an advantage to
white males (because it tests things that their background prepares them
for better), isn't that discriminatory also?
Yes, we do need to "really look at the problems". I see the colleges
doing so. I see most anti-affirmative action people sticking their head
in the sand.
And don't say that "...if it goes against the leftist mentality, no one
likes it." Look at the history of my debating here, and you will find
that I am not a "leftist" (unless having Libertarian ideals and
believing that the 2nd amendment does give individuals the right to own
guns [though I do happen to agree with some of the ideas of gun control,
I want something to try and assure that someone who owns a gun is
responsible] is leftist these days). Of course I guess I'm a liberal
Libertarian. As far as I see, a Libertopia does not infringe on MY right
to encourage liberal thinking, so long as I don't force you to pay for
my ideas. If liberals came to realize that, I think we would find
ourselves very quickly moving towards Libertopia.
--
Frank Filz
-----------------------------
Work: mailto:ffilz@us.ibm.com (business only please)
Home: mailto:ffilz@mindspring.com
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds"
|
| (...) Driving around with a black woman in my car sure revealed this. Suddenly I started getting stopped for fix-it tickets. My favorite was when they noted a broken light on the far side of the car that they couldn't see when they turned on their (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Rush: "Lego is a Tool for 4 year olds"
|
| (...) Some do and some don't, just like everyone else. It depends on their life choices, etc. (...) That is debatable, but if they get paid less, that's something for the EEOC to look at. (...) To who? Does every job category have to have x this, y (...) (24 years ago, 3-Feb-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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