 | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | (...) "Then" was less than half a year ago. I'm not sure how that can be construed as a long time. (...) I assure you that I am not just ranting on my own. Remember that LUGnet is not a real-time forum, and that not many NELUG members are likely to (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | (...) Ok, let's consider them then: ] Why do you cater only to adults? ] ] The primary reason is that children already have their own "User Groups" ] called their classmates. On average a child building with LEGO® has a ] large number of friends (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | (...) I did ask for consideration of the FAQ *and* my posts. You're not doing that. (...) I assure you that I wouldn't be going to such lengths to discuss this decision if it were a solitary opinion of my own. I try to be a reasonable person. (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) Well, the FAQ is the only "policy" of the group that I see. Other than that, I see a single member of the organization sharing his views, which may or may not be those of the rest of the organization. I did notice that I didn't comment on a (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Peter White
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| | | | | | | | | (...) You could argue for 21(voting), 16(age of consent/age you can marry) or any myriad of ages around the world where people are subject to laws. (...) let's hope they're taking about Lego or maybe it's adult talk ! (...) Hey Frank, why don't we (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Do you really think attempting destructive action will help anybody? I don't think Shiri would exactly feel welcomed into this group if this were the way it happened. We're not a government. Voting isn't a binding sort of legal thing. It's the (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I have to agree with Mathew on that one, and because of that we also need to be carefull about how much we antagonize the current members. What I hope to accomplish by participating in this debate is any of the following: - convince NELUG to (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Peter White
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) My aims too, Frank. By pointing out how you can be more ridiculous than the ridiculous shows that their position can be dismantled. They need to rename the group to include Adult in the title. Bad luck that Shiri doesn't live in a more (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) No it doesn't. You acknowledged that they could find a way to stop you. What it does is show that you are not seeking a consensus. That what you want is to belittle, demean, and bend people to your will. I suspect quite sincerely, that you are (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Peter White
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I can't see how she would ever feel welcome with people who are running this exclusive misnamed organisation. Not a government, how about legislative body. Have a secret ballot (as opposed to secret handshakes). By the way, I have no aim in (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I'm taking this seriously (and staying up later than I'd like, to discuss it) because I think Shiri's request deserves that. It doesn't sound like it's a joke to her. (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Peter White
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) You like taking things out of context. That particular line was a joke, NOT the whole argument. I work nights, so I'm staying up too ! Don't twist things around and try and make it appear that your supporting her or her request, you are (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I think Matther is giving consideration to Shiri's request. He has stated that he is willing to bring the issue up again in a future meeting. Let's not allow our frustration with the situation cause us to start throwing bricks (and I will (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) What's ironic is that Shiri did get together with a bunch of people in the Boston area (most of whom I assume are NELUGers). As I recall from watching the planning of the meeting at TCS and retirement to a nearby eatery is that Shiri was one (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) It's not ironic; it's intentional. We're not hard-hearted evil people. See: (3 URLs) I didn't realize that Shiri wasn't allowed to participate in the window display at TCS; I was really busy at work during that time, so someone else will have (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Eric Joslin
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I wasn't in on the window display, but I beleive that the reasoning behind it was pretty simple: It was an official NELUG "event", complete with signage at TCS saying that the display was by NELUG; therefore, a non-NELUG member shouldn't be (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Actually, I was 18 at the time. I turned 18 the end of February this year. -Tim (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) feel (...) Oops... I'm starting to recall that you were pressing for a non-NELUG meeting so that Shiri could attend (but that's all just a muddle). On the other hand, as I pointed out before, nothing magical (except a few stupid legalities) (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Yep, I was. (...) Exactly. -Tim (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) "NELUG" mirrors the many computer users' groups in the world. I don't think any deep thought went into the name, but it has an implication that we are something different from the normal Lego kids' club. "Users' groups" are generally for (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) So Shiri isn't a "serious" LEGO fan? My dictionary doesn't define "serious" as implying "adult". I have to admit that I've never joined any sort of "users group" (<sick humor>of course if one uses the coloquial definition of "user" then I'm (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (canceled) —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I think you started replying before you read the whole message: (...) We felt that we had to draw the line somewhere. I don't remember the particulars of other people's opinions on this next point, but personally I think making exceptions / (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) as (...) No I did read the whole message. What I'm trying to do is get you to re- examine the reasoning that led to the feeling the group had to be adult only. So far, the only issues which I can accept as legitimate which have been raised are (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Peter White
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Here, you go again, selective snipping. (...) What LUG isn't different from a kids club. We wouldn't even blink if a sixteen year old wanted to attend. But then in Australia we don't have a lawyer on every corner. (...) Rules need to be (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) That was the one part of your post I was replying to. I don't think I removed anything relevant to my reply or that would characterize what you're saying. If I did, I apologize. (...) That I don't doubt. I'm concerned about consequences for (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | I mean: (...) ^ -mis (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) So what are you going to do when some 21 year old demonstrates the maturity of a 3 year old? As far as the maturity issue goes, all you're doing by specifying an age is reducing the number of potential conflicts, you can't eliminate them. So (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Yep. Just as an aside, there is a process I often take architecture clients through (It's called QFD for the home audience to go look up if they want). It's quite formal and you get rather methodical and mechanical answers out at the end of (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) You could. But 18 is the age where, in the United States, you are legally responsible for yourself. (The age of majority.) Many members of NELUG are concerned about the possible legal implications of accepting minors into our group. You mocked (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) There is the ability to seek self-custody prior to 18 through the courts. What about in the extremely unlikely event that someone who has done so wants to join? (I realize that the rule is still 18, but what if the reason behind the rule flys (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) What (...) Probably irrelevant, there are still legal issues which make a cutoff at age 18 (such as voting, though the voting age has almost no bearing on this debate, I assume that there are other legal issues which are relevant). Also, NELUG (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I disagree with the first statement there -- I think everyone (myself included) is getting tripped up over the word "adult." Do you really mean to say that it is important to us (NELUG) to be a group of 18-and-older LEGO fans? I think what's (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) That's definitely important. But it actually _is_ important to some members (not unshakeably strongly for me, but maybe for some people, and I think it's a completely valid viewpointpoint) that it be an _adult_ group. After all, this is a (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Alright, I'm going to jump in here (I suppose it was inevitable) and say I'm agreeing with Todd-- (...) Well, I'll jump in here real quick with a minor point-- Lego's attitude has rarely (if ever, aside from the recent UCS sets and potentially LD) (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Shiri Dori
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Uhhh... tiny nitpick :-) (...) ^^^^^^ (you do mean NELUG, right?! just checking... didn't know there was a requirement for LUGNET too!! <grin>) Otherwise, you brought up some extremely valid points. -Shiri (24 years ago, 6-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Doh! The sad thing is I went through and tried to make sure I didn't DO that (I've been known to a couple times).. musta missed one... DaveE (24 years ago, 6-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I (...) In the US (which is what matters here), 18 is the voting age. This is the commonly accepted age of adulthood in the US (though drinking and smoking usually require being 21, and 16 is the age of consent for many things, though kids (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Eric Joslin
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| | | | | | | | (...) Frankly, I would find the presence of bored parents disruptive. I have before. eric (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) before. Possibly, maybe even probably, true. It depends on what is open for the bored parents to do. If there is another room where the couple bored parents and the bored spouse can hang out and do their own thing, or if the bored parents are (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) meeting (...) We are in hypothetical land here, unfortunately. I cannot speak for NELUG, only speculate. Organizing meetings is hard work. It's made harder when you have to: - make sure it's a bar that allows underage people - make sure (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —James J. Trobaugh
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| | | | | | | | Larry Pieniazek wrote in message ... <snip> (...) I might have missed something here in all the 300+ post, but what is "the T" and "x"? (24 years ago, 5-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Matthew Miller
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| | | | | | | | | (...) The T is the subway/trolley system in Boston. It's also the busses, but when people say "the T", they almost always mean trains. I'm not sure exactly what Larry means by "x", but I assume it stands for "getting there". [ -> off-topic.fun ] (24 years ago, 5-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Mark Herzberg
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| | | | | | | | (...) The "the T" is Boston's subway/train system. Sort of like how they call it "Le Metro" in Paris or "the Underground" in London. In Miami, we call our subway/train sytem "A waste of money", mainly because we know Miami is a car city, so only (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Funny, in the US anyway, it seems that the public transit that works the best was built a long time ago by private companies, and the public transit built recently in cities that didn't have any doesn't usually work at all. Here in Zurich, the (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Eric Joslin
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| | | | | | (...) And I assure you he is not the only NELUG or Lugnet member who feels the way he does. He is just the one who is getting to respond to these posts first- and he's doing it well enough that I, for one, don't see the need to parrot him. (...) (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) Unfortunately that is rather difficult for me to do since I'm in North Carolina. Frank (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | Re: Age limitations —Tim Courtney
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| | | | | (...) Then I must be mistaken. I based that comment off of some stuff I read today before posting my first reply, set 8 months ago, with a reference to this decision being made 4 months earlier, so roughly a year. (...) Yes, I understand that, and I (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | (...) Wait! How can you both say that maturity isn't directly attributable to age and then support _any_ age cut-off. This makes it sound like you're just trying to implement a change for...<blink, blink>...for what? Maybe for Shiri specifically? (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) it, (...) Absolutely agreed on this. (...) 18 is certainly the age which makes the most sense, though 16 is also a reasonable age. Of course in some ways, I would argue that 21 may be the most supportable age if alchohol consumtion will be a (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Eric Joslin
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| | | | | | | | (...) And frankly, this is precisely the reason I personally supported 21 as a cutoff age when we were discussing it. I am still extremely uncomfortable with the idea of anyone under 18 coming anywhere near a gathering of people drinking. eric (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Shiri Dori
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Ah, I knew the drinking issue would come up. Here's my stand on this: I don't drink. I have no reason to. I cannot drink, as I am allergic to grapes, and moreso, I don't *want* to drink. If I were offered a drink, I'd turn it down. I can give (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Eric Joslin
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) You desperately, desperately need to understand that this issue has nothing to do with you personally. eric (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Well, I'm not exactly urging you to take it up, but... (...) OH MY GOD! (Oh wait, I'm a heathen.) This would be unbearable. Can you trade in your body for one that works properly? The fermented juice of the grape is one of life's great (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) And in fact, the beverage most likely to be consumed at an adult gathering in the US doesn't have any grapes in it (at least as far as I know, I don't pretend to be an expert on alchoholic beverages). I would be dissapointed though which an (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Shiri Dori
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| | | | | | | | | | ROFL!! Thanks Chris, you just made my day, as much as my allergies are usually a serious issue to me I gotta reply on this one... (...) As am I, but I do say the occasionally OMG ;-) And I even pray once in a while, what can I do, that's the way I (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | (...) Me too -- I totally agree in the case of alcohol (no pun intended :-) But must there be a single sweeping cutoff? Make the cutoff 21 for meetings held at bars or places where alcohol is present. Make it 18 or 16 for other places. Simple. (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us)
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| | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | (...) I totally agree with Tim. And I realize that the issue isn't officially up for discussion when I say this, but I would still be in favor of lowering NELUG's age limit from 18 to 16. When the issue first came up last summer, IIRC, the number 18 (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —James J. Trobaugh
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| | | | | | | (...) Actually it's 16 in Georgia also.(15 for a learner's permit) jt -- ---...--- James J. Trobaugh North Georgia LEGO Train Club (URL) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | (...) D'oop! I stand corrected. Here's the chart I pulled data from: (URL) may be other errors. --Todd (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —James J. Trobaugh
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| | | | | | | | (...) It's easy to get it confused if you actually read the actually Georgia Department of Public safety codes, but for a Class D license (regular car) you must be 16 and have held a learner's permit for one year. (URL) did try to change this to 18 (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Mark A. Herzberg
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| | | | | | | | (...) It is currently 15/16 in Florida. And, like Georgia, attempts to raise it failed. (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) As an interested bystander, that seems reasonable. Of course to some extent, an event at someones house is up to that person's discretion. Certainly if someone's blanket liability policy has anything to say about age, that must be adhered to. (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | Re: Age limitations —Shiri Dori
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| | | | (...) It doesn't matter if it's a long time or not - if new things are brought up, it's reasonable to request a second discussion about this. <snip> (...) Of course, silly me... I totally forgot to reply to the points in the FAQ. From the URL posted (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | Re: Age limitations —Jeff Thompson
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| | | | | (...) Whoever wrote this about being bored by "just sit[ting] around talking" must not remember being younger than 18. Teenagers are not inherently bored by sitting and talking. Particularly teenagers as bright and sociable as Shiri seems to be. I (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-00, to lugnet.org.us, lugnet.org.us.nelug)
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| | | | | | (canceled) —Jeff Thompson
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