 | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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The whole problem of the abortion debate is that it is actually *two* debates intertwined into one. One, whether the government has the right to tell one what one can do with one's body (most would say no), and whether one has the right to take the (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) This issue aside, I can't agree with this. Goverment should also protect us from ourselves. If one were to decide to take ones own life, one would expect "government" to get involved. (...) Perhaps. However, a man was democratically executed (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) Government should protect us from ourselves??? This is an absurd statement in my mind (see my statement about avoiding personal responsibility), but I sense a fundamental disagreement here as to the purpose of government and will agree to (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) I agree :) (...) The problem here is what is "unjustified" to you may be OK to me - or vise versa. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one too. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) Well, not what "unjustified" means to *me*, but to what society says. In the case of capital punishment, society may say that *that* is justice; therefore executions are justified in the eyes of that society. If you mean to agree to disagree (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) If a given group of people reach a democratic decision after am informed, educated and objective debate - who am I to argue against they are "wrong"? I may disagree, but I can only respect their opinion. This issue aside, at times (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) Why should we EXPECT government to get involved with a choice over our own lives, if it does not affect others? That's just plain WRONG. -- Tom Stangl ***(URL) Visual FAQ home ***(URL) Bay Area DSMs (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) Not this one. Suicide should be a right. Chris (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) So if knew a pesron was about to take their own life, you'd let them on the basis that you consider they should have the right to do so?! I'd tend to try to stop them. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) I'd agree... Assuming of course that the person is of sound mind, and that the rights of others are not being violated in doing so. Clear cut example, I don't have the right to fill up a truck with explosives and then drive to your house and (...) (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) Sounds selfish to me. I happy to live in a society where, no matter what my circumstances, I have the right to education, healthcare and housing. I also happy that the state meddles in my affairs and invades my privacy to make sure I am giving (...) (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) Wow. And this is probably where the discuss ends, because we in America value *FREEDOM* and *LIBERTY*. It is the basis for our existence, and why further debate is pointless. You welcome government telling you what you can and cannot do. We (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Rights, Who needs them? (was Re: Abortion...
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(...) Scott, of course, snipped the subordinate clause I put on there, the clause showing a balance of rights so that all rights are respected. As is his wont. Snip away what might disagree with your point or show that the other side is reasonable. (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | (canceled)
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| | Re: Rights, Who needs them? (was Re: Abortion...
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(...) I was not trying to hide that Larry. And I did alert any readers to that fact - which is what you chose not to answer my questions. That aside, looking at the tone of some of the LP aims, I feel that they do not care too much for the rights of (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) case (...) But that doesn't make it right, or actually just. (...) But still evil. (...) Well, if you're a member of said society, and being forced to fund their evil practices, I think you ahve every right to explain that they are wrong. (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) Honestly, I could see it going either way. My grandfather-in-law was really sick and stocked up on poison with which to end his life. I knew that was going to happen. I never once considered intervening. If my son, as an adolescent, seems (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights, Who needs them? (was Re: Abortion...
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(...) From the definition of "critical" (1) (and I am surprised that I have to explain this to a Doctor, actually. What kind of doctor are you, again?) ... You are "critical" in the sense of 2 a : inclined to criticize severely and unfavorably (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) So, exactly how little do you wish to have the right to do as you please? Would you be OK with it if your government decided that sales via online auction houses were illegal because they were funnelling money out of the UK and into the US, (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights, Who needs them? (was Re: Abortion...
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(...) PhD ... (...) Yes you are correct. Even though I have a lot of respect for TL, I don't think he is correct all the time. No big deal really. If it were TL could change the T&C. (...) If you mean I don't agree with you, you are correct. (...) (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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Okay, you are responding to opinions of two people mixed below, but I will just cut to the chase, Chris. You say killing mass murderers and repeat child molesters is evil. How would you deal with them? Simply incarcerate them so that they may enjoy (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) just (...) that (...) equipment, (...) How do you deal with the first innocent person you murder??? Does that answer your question? As I stated before, I can think of 2 cases in Canada (and several in the US) off my head that would have lead (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights, Who needs them? (was Re: Abortion...
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(...) Scott, think this through, and give an answer: what superior power of decision making does the government (which is a collection of people) have that any other collection of people could have? What makes the legislatures and other government (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) Well, I never really came out and said that I was pro death penalty. But if I were, I would be *damned* sure that the convicted party was indeed the perp. All I am saying is that our current system leaves a lot to be desired. What I suggested (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) Yes. (...) Yes, assuming they will work, they need to be properly fed so they can perform as much work as possible, now if they chose not to work (or chose to be so uncontrollable that they can not safely be put to work), well, then they (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) I'm not sure I'd give them cable OR net access. I don't support the way prisoners are treated in the US (or for that matter, the way prisons are organized and funded)... but don't confuse that with support for putting someone to death in order (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights, Who needs them? (was Re: Abortion...
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(...) You or I can only hope to assist our kids in the education path which they choose. They can only make a choice from what is available. Educational planners are there to predict the needs of your country. At a low level, below are the aims of (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights, Who needs them? (was Re: Abortion...
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(...) You're a scholar (who won't say what his PhD is in, which is what I was asking) or so you claim... read some Hayek. (URL) demonstrates to my satisfaction, that no planning board can outplan the market. No planning board can predict needs, (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights, Who needs them? (was Re: Abortion...
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So you accept all the other points I rasied then? And what about all those you snipped in you last reply to me? You are squirming Larry. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights, Who needs them? (was Re: Abortion...
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(...) Ah. A libertarian economist. Just what is your level of "satisfaction"? (...) If this is so, how can a collective of parents do any better? (...) Hardly objective Larry, you can do better than this. Answer all my points. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights, Who needs them? (was Re: Abortion...
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(...) ROFL. This guy came runner-up in the LP man of the century! You using him for justification, is like Lenin using Marx (Not Groucho) to justify communism. You really are a critical thinker Larry, I am in awe. Argue your point with me Larry, be (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Handling of Prisoners?
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(...) It is demonstrable that the cost of putting a prisoner to death (after weighing the costs of appeals et al) greatly exceeds the cost of imprisoning that same prisoner for life; the argument that execution saves money is flawed. It is, by the (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) just (...) I would search for a way to help them remedy the harm that they caused. If they are mentally broken, I would therapise them (I suppose, by force, even though I'm uncomfortable with that), and if they were too broken, I would (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) What if they were unrepentant? (I'm innocent!) My point was that letting criminals sit around for the rest of their lives in prison with all of their needs provided for and more is hardly justice IMO. Simple incarceration is not enough. (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) their (...) So what? I assume that most criminals in today's society are unrepentant. (...) needs (...) Well, that is clearly not what I advocated above, so I'm not sure why you're pointing this out to me. They should be employed in the (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) I was referring to criminals *in* prison-- if most assert innocence, I doubt they would be willing to work to make reparations. (...) I think we agree that criminals should *work* to make reparations. All I'm pointing out is that, *in our (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) they (...) Me too. They assert innocence in order to try to get out. They would be willing to work if they were properly incented to. You can shackle people and have them make gravel, but that's not useful. You can not shackle people and have (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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Christopher Weeks wrote: <snip> (...) Yeah, so what the hell are we arguing about? :-) (...) Yeah, I'm sure they do, Chris. But when they get out, they get amnesia or something, because many if not most go back to a life of crime. You explain it. (...) (24 years ago, 14-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) it. They don't know how. Prison _could_ (but does not) teach them how to do it right. (...) pick (...) would (...) Or if they were released with the skills to make it on the outside. And that way we don't have blood on our hands. (...) be (...) (24 years ago, 14-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) This assumes that criminals are caught upon their first infraction. A criminal doesn't become "hardened" simply by spending time in the joint; a life of criminal activity, inside or outside of prison, will harden someone very effectively. (...) (24 years ago, 14-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) I think that most criminals are first caught during their youth. That aside, I'm sure there are some who live long full lives of crime and never get caught. I still suspect that if someone can be hardened, they can be softened. (...) Yes. And (...) (24 years ago, 15-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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Christopher Weeks wrote: <snip> (...) If a person freely chooses a life of crime, who are you to say that they are lost? I 'spose you'd say that they are "broken", but if that is the case, then I'd venture that by your definition of broken, all (...) (24 years ago, 15-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) An optimistic notion, to be sure, but I don't know that it's consistent with reality. The process by which someone becomes hardened into a life of crime is insidious and *very* long term (or at least potentially so); I cannot imagine, nor has (...) (24 years ago, 16-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) I expect that if it takes them a long time to harden, it will take at least as long to soften. And ultimately, I don't know how to do what I'm suggesting. If you can arrange stewardship over a prison and a somewhat increased budget with which (...) (24 years ago, 16-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What about all the prisoners?
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(...) I'm still not comfortable with this, since it suggests "choose to conform or we'll make you choose to conform to society's ideals" in a way every bit as totalitarian as the Big Brother states of which Libertopia is the antithesis. (I know you (...) (24 years ago, 16-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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"Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:G3tJ8p.446@lugnet.com... (...) "wrong"? (...) at (...) Having read what I just wrote in this forum regarding education and child rearing are you still so selfless to say, "Who am I to argue (...) (24 years ago, 27-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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"John Neal" wrote in message (...) people) (...) liberals (...) sociopaths (...) ever) (...) under the (...) huge (...) Would the Libertarians call this wussy flash? Why would you want to keep the most abused of all drug laws on the books, Mr. (...) (24 years ago, 27-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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(...) Not sure I understand the question-- are you asking me why I would still make it a crime to drive a vehicle under the influence of drugs? Because if you are, then you are more obtuse than I thought. -John (24 years ago, 27-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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"John Neal" <johnneal@uswest.net> wrote in message news:3A228CA4.D204CA...est.net... (...) make (...) you (...) Oh I know the answer John, the question was more rhetorical, so I am not really offended nor even surprised by your attack. Hopefully (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Freedoms in Libertopia? (was Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne)
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(...) Well, here's my point. I am all for personal freedom, but even in Libertopia we need to draw some lines. Hey, use all the drugs you want; it's your life to ruin. As long as you do it with the understanding that there won't be any free gov (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Freedoms in Libertopia? (was Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne)
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(...) Are there systems that can prevent irresponsible driving that might work even better than what we have now? The US has an alarmingly high amount of DWI. Our system may not be working all that well. Other countries are even worse. I don't have (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Freedoms in Libertopia? (was Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne)
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(...) Of course such a device does exist, though I'm not sure how accurate it is. (...) So would I. (...) With privitized roads, I don't see any problem with the owner putting any sort of restrictions, including deciding someone looks like a drunk (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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