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(...) <snip> (...) <snip> I really appreciate your view, Steve. I resent the tendency to idiot-proof the world. I'm an adult, and I can judge for myself what is or is not offensive. I don't need my world pre-packaged in a child safe wrapper. ~Mark (...) (24 years ago, 3-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I *was* hanging back a bit. There are some very very subtle issues here. Like I said in my original post, I couldn't put my finger on what was bothering me exactly. And Damraska summed it up nicely, it's satire of a meme, not a call for (...) (24 years ago, 3-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I didn't lump you unequivocally into any camp. Nor did I charge you with anything. (...) IMO, this sounds an awful lot like a PC sentiment. "JarJar is a minority, so let's all be ultra-nice to him" You wrote: (...) After which, I suggested (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) rights (...) Are you saying that it being "PC" to suggest that it's wrong for people to beat up on minorities just because they're minorities? There's a wide difference between the extreme "PC" view that one should always heap everyone with (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well,I think JarJar should be ground up for pig food. Does that make him a minority? I didn't hate any of the other Gungans, so I don't think so. (...) The biggest problem I have with the PC movement is that it has gotten so extreme. I'm (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Deliberately quoted out of context... (...) That's an intolerant viewpoint. I'm sorry, but it is. JarJar is lame, he's stupid, he's annoying, I'd choose not to associate with him, but I'm not calling for anyone to be ground up for pig food. Even in (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I haven't called for ANY sentient beings to be ground up, thanks. JarJar isn't a sentient being. He's not subject to evolution. He's a cgi construct created to sell toys and toothbrushes and bedsheets. He's fictional. Not Real. Make Believe. (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) JJ is a portrayal of a fictional sentient being. One might assume from your statements of vilification that you would feel that way about real people who act like JJ. Now, I'm sure (or hope) you'll say that you don't support that people who (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) My take on it is this: When SW fans rip on Jar-Jar, it's their way of letting off steam -- venting -- and really, that's about all there is to it (to the motivation behind it). Hardcore SW fans (no, I haven't done a scientific survey) feel (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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(...) What I mean by this is that I believe the following is true: If you take a random cross-section of the population and ask them to rate on a scale of 0 to 10 how strongly they feel they were a "Star Wars fan" in 1998 (prior to the release of (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) I should probably clarify that, so that it doesn't get mistaken for saying something it's not. What I mean when I say "I hate Jar-Jar" or "I hate Timmy" or "I hate Barney the Dinosaur" or "I hate Microsoft" is: "I'd like to see as little as (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) I'm just gonna snip out all the other stuff. I'm tired of rehashing it. <snip> (...) Yes. (...) No, what I resent are efforts to change *my* world to make it safe for *your* kids. Having kids is *your* choice, not mine. therefore, it becomes (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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Preface: Chris, I don't know you, and so I have no realistic means of evaluating you, your personality, your values, etc. But you've got some SERIOUSLY flawed arguments here. (...) One certainly might assume this, if one had difficulty (...) (24 years ago, 4-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) Mark, please show us ONE place where any of us has asked for the comic to be changed or removed. All Larry has said is that he is uncomfortable with his children reading the comic, and will take action to prevent them from seeing it. He also (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) OK, this is one of those instances where things get muddled over time and multiple quotes. I never said Lar or anyone else called for the comic to be changed or removed. I did use the "C" word in my post this morning, mainly because I was (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Reality == fiction?
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OK, now we get to the heart of the matter that I was trying to put my finger on when I started this... but before I comment on Josh's post let me say this... Todd kind of backpedaled from his statement that he hates JarJar. I don't think he should (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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I'm curious about this 'not my kids, not my responsibility' attitude a couple people have expressed. Is this a stance only taken when it comes to children? If I follow this reasoning I could say that there are no adults I am specifically responsible (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think respect is gained on an individual basis, though legally people are considered responsible for themselves at 18. (...) Sure. I can agree with that. (...) Hmm... I think I'd have to say this is occurring because I sort of drug the (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) Actually, I kind of think that I do too, but not the ones you mention. The main two problems with my post were 1) that it was kind of more personal than I wish I had made it, and 2) that I played fast and loose with attributing the three (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) Ahh. Well, that's entirely reasonable. When you have a world, I assure you that I won't intrude with my safening attempts. But while we're talking about our world, I think it's fair game. (...) I think that I can extend this logic to a (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Reality == fiction?
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(...) this... (...) He should have if that's how he feels. And really, he didn't backpedal so much as clarify. And why do you hate JarJar? (...) From a personal inner peace (and health) kind of stance, I think it's better not to. (...) Maybe. There (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I meant *my* world as in the Adult world we all live in. The USA makes a person legally responsible for themselves at age 18. Before that time, their parents are responsible for them. (...) OK, I'm with you up to here. (...) No I don't, (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) Only sort of. I see the grant of self-responsibility as legally being a gradual thing. As a person ages, the law puts more and more responsibility on the shoulders of the individual, and provides more and more rights. Maybe you are right in (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm just gonna snip all that other stuff, because media is what I've been talking about. (...) At five, he'd likely have changed the station to cartoons or some such. I know I would have at that age. Unless your five-year-old displays an (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Huh? (...) Maybe this makes my opinion of JJB more clear: I would not hate JJB at all if he were in some cheezeball B-movie sci-fi flick. If he were, I could ignore him -- and I wouldn't have to hate him. It's the fact that he appeared in a (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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(...) I couldn't agree more. --Todd (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That is likely, unless he didn't know how. We don't watch TV, but do watch movies, so he would have accidentally hit the TV/VCR button while trying to load a VHS tape, a laser disc, or a DVD. He would then take time to figure out how to get it (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Reality == fiction?
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(...) Aha! Thanks for writing that! I feel that while I hate Jar-Jar, I don't despise him. (Isn't that a strange contradiction?) Now I know how to say this: What I hate isn't Jar-Jar per se, but the fact that a character like Jar-Jar, which I find (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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(...) In fact...hmmm...I might even *like* JJB if he had been in some *other* movie and not a SW movie. That's bizarre. --Todd (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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(...) My take on this (by the way, I agree w/ Todd's last statement) is that Star Wars in supposed to be an incredible epic, which it is. Now, you take something that's sole purpose is a marketing symbol for the kiddies and toss it into an epic, (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Star Wars ruminations (was: Reality == fiction?)
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(...) Uh..no problem. (...) Not in light of how you equated Jar-Jar to sea food and MS. The only problem that I had with that note, was that you said the essense of your hate is that you wanted to limit as much as possible your exposure to those (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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(...) What about Darth Maul? Chris (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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(...) I think that's a great way of summing it up. Although -- it might not be quite the case that JJB's _only_ purpose was a marketing symbol. The main source of comic relief in Episodes IV-VI was C-3PO, with assorted material between Han & Chewie, (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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(...) Maul is also a marketing tool, yes. But, I mean, c'mon...he's just plain cool. He embodies a different quality...he is Star Wars, where Jar Jar isn't. A true bad guy for an epic. At least, IMO. -Chris (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Star Wars ruminations (was: Reality == fiction?)
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(...) I didn't think I said that. I thought I said that the cartoon violence aimed at JJB was sort of a pleasant thing in fantasy sort of way -- in the way that allows you to pretend that JJB won't return for Episode II. I certainly don't wish to (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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(...) I agree that he was cool, but if you compare the number of times we saw him to the times we saw the other characters before the movie came out, you would think that he was the star. As it turns out he said something, what twice? He is (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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(...) Ahhh, I know what you mean! We don't know how Darth Maul thinks -- we don't hear him talking much and when we do, he doesn't say anything profound or revealing. He doesn't interact with anyone else except to fight. Whereas we know that Darth (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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(...) OK, you got me. Let me rephrase my words: Darth Maul is a very cool, "b**-a** m***** f*****" who's place in the Star Wars universe was to come in, be cool, do his thing, kill Qui-Gon, get Obi-Wan all mad, and die. I do hope that he returns for (...) (24 years ago, 5-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Star Wars ruminations (was: Reality == fiction?)
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(...) I liked the battle droids, shows how stupid robots can be (and are sometimes). (...) Yeah, Lucas was drinking quite heavily then... (...) Don't forget, all Naboo star craft represents royalty and beauty, so they will have none of that (...) (24 years ago, 6-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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(...) Yeah, he's more of the evil henchman kinda guy, but he was very cool and bad. (...) Since Episode 2 is most likely based on the Clone Wars, perhaps we shall see a clone (that fights Mace Windu... or something!!). (...) Boba Fett is really (...) (24 years ago, 6-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Star Wars ruminations (was: Reality == fiction?)
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(...) The dumbest thing about them for me was that their Trade Federation masters had to appear via holo-radio (or whatever) to give them orders. Duh! And the roger-roger guff was silly, but I actually thought it was a fairly good way of throwing in (...) (24 years ago, 6-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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I have to agree-- I expected much more from Maul... as is he was simply Darth Sidious' pawn, he didn't have his own agenda. Or at least not yet. He seemed to be like an anxious kid, eager to go out and kill Jedi, without any strategy save that which (...) (24 years ago, 6-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Star Wars ruminations (was: Reality == fiction?)
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(...) I think that the movie was also degraded by the "super-powers" of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Lucas would put his characters in a particularly tight spot, and then have then overcome the situation by an introduction of incredible abilities. Ex: (...) (24 years ago, 6-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Star Wars ruminations (was: Reality == fiction?)
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Just to throw my two cents into the fray... While I agree the running away was a lousy special effect, I think I understand where GL was coming from with the super power effects. As I've gleaned from the various bits of written fiction, there were (...) (24 years ago, 6-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Star Wars ruminations (was: Reality == fiction?)
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(...) Or maybe just reaching down and cutting his hands off, eh? ~Mark "Muffin Head" Sandlin (24 years ago, 6-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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(...) Before the movie came out, people were asking all kinds of things about what the Jedi would be doing. Would there be a Lightsaber duel? Would there be force powers? Etc, etc. Lucas basically answered their questions by saying that what we saw (...) (24 years ago, 6-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Star Wars ruminations (was: Reality == fiction?)
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(...) I have to disagree with this. I have always thought that in the original trilogy, the Jedi didn't make enough use of their powers. Jedi are supposed to be able to do most anything and yet they barely use their powers. I think the main reason (...) (24 years ago, 6-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Star Wars ruminations (was: Reality == fiction?)
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(...) They did. At least, I know Maul did. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn did similar things at other points in the movies (mostly pushing around Droids). I think, though, that most of their attunement to the Force during that fight was probably concentrating (...) (24 years ago, 6-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Star Wars ruminations (was: Reality == fiction?)
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(...) then (...) While the technology in Games is usually junk most of the Star Wars games Story's fit perfectly into the cannon material. So in Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight (DF2JK) the main character has: (...) as (...) Force Speed (...) Force Jump (...) (24 years ago, 7-Nov-00, to lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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Glad to read your post, Chris. We've got some disagreements, but I was mainly concerned that my tone would come off as condescending or insulting. Many discussions have shown that people can interpret animousity where non is intended in these (...) (24 years ago, 7-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Reality == fiction?
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(...) Clarity, of course, is subjective, and if the humor of a work involves subtlety, then the intent of the work will become unclear to the less perceptive. (...) Are you suggesting that irony requires an explanatory prefix to avoid offending or (...) (24 years ago, 7-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Absolutely not. (...) Of course it would have ruined the "joke." But it isn't fit for the consumption of eight year olds. At least not many of them. (...) I think that people who delight in the graphic representation of infanticide and (...) (24 years ago, 7-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) Even if you do, I can deal with it. :-) (...) is (...) hold? (...) it (...) I sort of meant lucky for him. That is most especially, the him that would be if he were a sentient. (...) The archetype behind the Jar-jar character is human. When we (...) (24 years ago, 7-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) Lucky, perhaps, but it is the essence of the argument. People's animosity toward Jar Jar (my own included) stems not from the fact that he's stupid or clumsy, but because George Lucas made a conscious and concerted effort to generate the (...) (24 years ago, 7-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) For rhetorical purposes I will discuss this as though you were yourself a fictional character, since I cannot evaluate your real-world psychology. My impression from what you've presented is that, during your teen years, you were lashing out (...) (24 years ago, 7-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) Yes, thanks. By generalizing, you're shifting a beaten argument (by me as much as anyone) about a specific instance into a more socially relevant conversation. (...) On one level, I think it's important for us to understand as a society (...) (24 years ago, 8-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Reality == fiction?
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(...) Well, that's an even less tactful way of phrasing it than mine, but I'm afraid you're reading the statement fairly accurately. I'll rephrase: ---...--- A person who is unable to comprehend irony, and requires instances of satire to be labeled (...) (24 years ago, 8-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Reality == fiction?
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(...) Fair enough. I agree with the above. Clearly, some 8 year olds (not even mine, smarter than average that he is) don't have that sophistication. I'm sure we'd all agree with that as well. Taking that into account, and taking the relative (...) (24 years ago, 8-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, I do to. But that "re-phrasing" isn't what he implied before. He suggested that "these" (the concepts under discussion) were jr. high level ideas and that we ought to simply agree with his obvious conclusion. That is a horse of a (...) (24 years ago, 8-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Something not right about Captain Ahnee and the Dipwads?
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(...) I think that is worthy of research. (...) Me too. :-) I'm the proud owner of most of Tarantino's works on laser disc. (...) When you first took in a "cinematic bloodbath" were you shocked, horrified, impressed, etc. more than you are now? As (...) (24 years ago, 8-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Reality == fiction?
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(...) If you'll go back to my original post (URL) , you'll see that I was reacting to Larry's statement: (...) Since satire and irony are such powerful, long-standing staples of our cultural dialogue, I rejected Larry's statement, and asked him to (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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