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Apart from a few replies that have indicated AUCZilla and possibly others don't work, this way, I'd be surprised if any bidding software actually used that sort of algorithm to calculate the new bid, simply because it's such a computationally (...) (26 years ago, 20-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Any indications that AucZILLA doesn't work correctly have been incorrect. (...) What do you mean by "this way" and by "that sort of algorithm"? By "computationally inefficient" do you mean 1/1000 second versus 1/10000 second to process a bid? (...) (26 years ago, 20-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Not to split hairs, here, because now that I'm reassured that AucZILLA works the way it does, I like the way it works... but isn't "correct" a bit of a stretch? I'd say an auction system is working "correctly" if the rules it claims to (...) (26 years ago, 20-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Maybe a bit subjective, yeah. :) (...) And fairly. (...) I'll explain why it's broken below... (...) The behavior isn't broken given the rules. The rules are broken. EBay's rule (requiring a new bid to exceed the current bid by the minimum (...) (26 years ago, 20-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) No. Not required. The auction system doesn't have to be fair to be working "correctly". But the RULES can be broken. And I'm with you, the rules in eBay that allow a one penny overbid to take a solid wide range proxy bid away are indeed (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) I don't know if you're splitting hairs, but splitting hairs is probably a good thing in this case. :I This whole area/topic (auction theory) is something that I'm extremely opinionated[1] about -- and not afraid to show it, even at the risk of (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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Larry, I must protest! In designing the system, I wanted first of all to allow firm bidding - which is an important signialing tool in an auction. But the 'common' rules in proxy-only auctions would have bestowed every advantage upon the proxy bid, (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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The bidding mechanism also has some new functionality. Assume the current lot is open with no bids and a $10 minimum. Next, assume it is an Airport Shuttle - built once. I make a firm bid of $150, fine. I then make a proxy bid of $400. The net (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Well, I can appreciate the technical elegance but I'm not sure I think this is a good thing or not. Basically you're saying that as a bidder, you can retract the "secret" part of your bid, as long as it hasn't been revealed yet. In your (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Sorry - I actually meant to say that some replies had indicated that AucZILLA doesn't work _in the way Larry had described_, not that it doesn't work (full stop). Reading through my last posting, there was a comma after 'work' which shouldn't (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) it (...) proxy. (...) So in a similar scenario to the one Larry's pointed out - if I come along with a $200 firm bid (and a $250 maximum) just before your phone bill arrives, then I don't get the shuttle, and your firm bid shoots up to $250. (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) assume it (...) net (...) bid of (...) proxy. (...) proxy (...) For all the condemnation eBay recieves, I still believe it is one of the best systems made. The system described above is not good at all, IMO, if it allows a person to make a (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:28:47 GMT, "John DiRienzo" <jdiri14897@email.msn.com> wrote: [stuff about eBay, and proxy bidding, and bid increments] About the issue of whether new bids have to beat the proxy by the increment amount, I say this: as long as (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Really? Consider this scenario that could happen at SeriousCollector You have an item won, sitting at 400, and your max proxy is 500. Someone outbids you with a hard bid of 500.01 (lucky guess on their part) which gets rounded to 500.50 under (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) increment (...) make (...) Now wait, screwed by who? To blame the auction system is just a way of shifting the blame - you knew before hand when the auction would end and could at any time have raised your proxy, if you were willing to pay (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Allowing someone to lower the "secret" part of the bid (the proxy max) is Definitely a Good Thing. If the min/current is $x and the max/proxy is $y, it's important to let the bidder lower $y -- at any time -- to any value (...) This is (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) I've placed proxy bids which did not meet the seller's reserve. I couldn't figure out an easy way to force my minimum up and in a few cases not met the reserve because no one else came along to bump up my proxy. So I assume that a firm bid (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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In lugnet.market.auction, John DiRienzo writes: <snippage> (...) Todd answered most of your points much more sensibly than I could, but I still want to reply this one. Any system (auction or otherwise) that encourages unfair activity, deserves at (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) It doesn't allow them to withdraw their bid. It allows them to reduce their private maximum. This hurts neither the seller nor the other bidders in any way. (...) A firm bid is a special case of a proxy bid in which the minimum and maximum (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) I don't know about other people, but I tend to go into an auction (more often a parts auction than an auction server, but the principle still applies) with two things. A maximum budget, and a list of things I want. so if I'm looking at A and (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Hmm, how so? Can you give an example? (...) I think a byproduct of assigning labels to bid types is confusion about what's really going on. What's really going on in a "proxy bid" is this: You have a bid range -- an ordered pair (x,y), where x (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) if (...) their (...) any (...) Yes, but, psychologiaclly, this could be detrimental for the bidder, in that people may bid too much, thinking they can always change later. Not having such an option, people must give greater consideration to (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Yea, brother! --Todd (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) It can only reward someone for delaying if they knew that you had dropped your bid, which they wouldn't know. Also, consider the case when you raise your proxy max rather than leaving it where it is. --Todd (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Apparently screwed by the other bidder, but actually screwed by the broken auction system. (...) It is correct to blame the auction system. Humans in general will by their nature do whatever they can to work any system to their personal (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) That makes perfect sense, yes! And you can always scrounge together another $.50 or $1.00 if you really need to at the last moment. This is why it's so important to have a re-review period. There are two things that hurt the most in auctions: (...) (26 years ago, 21-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) WHOA. Darn Good Point. --Todd (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Reserve-price auctions are the most nefarious thing ever invented. --Todd (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Point well taken, Larry. What about the seller though? It's the *seller* that pays the bills... If A's proxy bid is $1000, and the increment is 10%, and B submits a bid of $1075, then under the proposed method, A wins, get ratcheted up to (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Someone bids $100 with a proxy max of $500. Now it's climbed to $150 and the bidding is still hot, and the high bidder realizes he doesn't have $500 after all (maybe it was a typo, or maybe he was counting on some money to come in which didn't (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Ouch! 15% is extreme for a bid increment. So much for me doing much bidding on that site. (...) I would say that overly-large bid increments is a separate problem, but it does help illustrate that no-minimum-increment...-proxy-bid is a Bad (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) But live auctions don't end after the first 5 minutes (or however long) of bidding. They run until the bids stop coming in. That's what the typical online G1/G2/Sold auction does, just at a slower pace. You'd have better luck comparing eBay to (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) It also helps to be able to send messages to other bidders. A polite "there is no way o God's green Earth you are getting XXXXXX away from me" goes a long way. I've heard of less-polite messages, but I really wouldn't know about those. (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Steve, The Serious Collector allows the selling Member to pick the indrement: 5% 10% or 15% - it is not fixed at X%. The selling Member thus controls the speed of the auction, or rather s/he manages how quickly a lot reaches its "ideal" price. (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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Derick Bulkley wrote in message ... (...) 10% (...) Hey, that's a good thing to know! That large increment was my biggest complaint today regarding SC - if its adjustable, I think that is definitely a step up from any other on-line auction. 15% is (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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James Brown wrote in message ... (...) the (...) still (...) ebay (...) He did, and so have you. Like the government, everyone complains about it, but I am still glad we have it. I am a tad idealistic myself, but when any system performs its (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) can't (...) new (...) address) (...) I would contest that a more reasonable way to get out of the bid is to let the seller know well before the auction ends that the bidder is unable to pay for what he has bid. Then that bid can be canceled. (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) That's great! Thanks for pointing this out. Steve (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) But it is possible to bid $10, and see the bid bounce back to the other person at $10. So limiting bids to exact increments won't solve the "revealing the proxy bid" syndrome. I think you were more on track with the approach of raising the (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) But now you're not talking about having to beat the proxy by the increment, you're talking about bidders being unwilling to go to the next increment level. That's a different problem, and happens in every single auction -- they end when no one (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Sanjay's recent Maersk Truck auction is another good example. One early bidder bid $50 when the rest of the trucks were at $35. The $50 truck sold early and the rest ended up going for more than $50. (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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In lugnet.market.auction, Todd Lehman writes: [snip] (...) From the number of the responses to this and a few other Auction technology threads, maybe we need lugnet.maket.technology group? (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Sure, of course it's more honest if the bidder bows out honorable way. But not everyone is going to do that. If you allow people to renege on their high bid without any penalty or record-blackening, the result over time is many frustrated (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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Todd Lehman wrote in message ... (...) unable (...) as (...) to (...) I don't know if eBay spends ANY time policing their system. I am sure they do, but its not evident. The feedback thing seems to be the main thing thats used. And if you fail to (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Which is the MUCH more likely use. -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp | | Please do not associate my personal views with my employer | (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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Messages also help when a bidder is trying to bid on ALL lots of a piece, you only want ONE, and after the bids get ridiculously high, you find out it's because he needs "all the lots minus X pieces from the last lot", you only need X or less, so (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) [snip] (...) Market theory could include algorithms, etc. but my initial reaction is - What makes an auction good, just, fair, well run - it turns into an ethical discussion for me - although that might not be a bad topic for here either. (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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(...) [snip] (...) Market theory could include algorithms, etc. but my initial reaction is - What makes an auction good, just, fair, well run - it turns into an ethical discussion for me - although that might not be a bad topic for here either. (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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(...) Hey, that's a cool name that might work. Are these analysis/theory threads becoming too much to follow in a primiarly-non-discussion group? Are these discussions noise here? If so, then yes, there should be a separate group for this sort of (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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(...) OOPS - I jsut did a "McDonald" - just kidding TOM (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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(...) You can't eliminate Firm Bids, PERIOD. If I wanted a firm bid of X in an auction that didn't allow them, I'd bid a Proxy of X-minincr and X. That's a waste of bidder's time, is it not? I personally use Ebay (and of course at least half of the (...) (26 years ago, 22-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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| | ng for auction technologies/theory?
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(...) Is that a case in favor of .market.theory or in favor of .market.tech? In my mind, ethical issues fit much more closely with what .market.theory means but not so much with what .market.tech* means, so ethics would be a case in favor (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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| | Re: ng for auction technologies/theory?
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(...) I agree that .theory is too narrow. What about market.techniques? To me that would seem to encompass the theory aspect to a certain extent as well as the use of technology. Anyone can discuss tips on what/where/how/when to buy/sell. I had (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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(...) If you dislike the feature that much, then you shouldn't support the feature. But it is a very good feature nonetheless, because it helps your bidders accomplish what they want to accomplish. (...) You won't make anything less harmful for (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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Tom Stangl wrote in message <371FAADA.E4CD7369@n...pe.com>... :Messages also help when a bidder is trying to bid on ALL lots of a piece, you only :want ONE, and after the bids get ridiculously high, you find out it's because he :needs "all the lots (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) I think what ultimately hurts an auction site (or any site, for that matter) is not giving people the features they want. How many IRL auctions have you -ever- heard of that -didn't- allow large bid jumps? The kind of jumps that cause the (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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Todd Lehman wrote in message ... :>Therein lies what I beleive to be the ugliness of timed :> auctions - they discourage bidders from revealing information (how they :> value a given lot) until as late as possible. : :Amen to that! : : :> Don't get (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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| | Re: Proxy ratcheting: How do auction systems work?
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(...) Why not lugnet.market.discuss? (or STB lugnet.market.disc? Use appropriate abbreviation here) The topic du jour may be auction philosophies and the best rules to build an auction around, but there are other discussion-type topics which could (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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(...) I like market.theory better than technology for two reasons 1) as Todd said, cut back on people thinking they can buy CD players there... 2) Theory encompasses technology. 3) the Usenet precendent. OK, 3 reasons. That said, I don't think (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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(...) Yes. Should you be bidding in auctions if you haven't organized your life sufficiently to have bought insurance? No, you shouldn't. If you do anyway, and have to welsh because you didn't think things through, you deserve a black mark. Else (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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| | Re: Proxy ratcheting: How do auction systems work?
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I like the idea of lugnet.market.auction.d (discussion) since most of the people must be looking for auctions in this particular group. Todd Lehman wrote in message ... (...) People like options. Right. But people, myself included, can hear of some (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) That's not sniping, that's just bidding. Arrangements are nice, but they have to run with the acknowledgement that other people might bid on the lots in question. It still sucks to be you in that case. Steve "You keep using that word. I do not (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Yes, but a large measure of the pleasure is a negative pleasure, that of intentionally hurting other people. I'm pretty sure most people who snipe don't think much about it, they're just playing the game by the rules, but there are also plenty (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) I was just going to say that. I think that a lugnet.market.discussion or similar would encompass all the issues that have been presented without misleading in any way. It's not as specific as .theory or .technology which I consider a plus, but (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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(...) I like it: lugnet.market.discuss! (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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Todd Lehman wrote in message ... (...) then (...) final (...) For a Siege Cart?? Wow! Actually thats roughly 66% more, but who's counting. :-) OTOH, if he had bid $50 or $60 from the get go, when the minimum was only $6, its highly likely the (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Because shipping and shopping are marketplace discussions but not theory or technologies/techniques. A broad name like .market.discuss invites people to talk about everyday things like FOTW's and UPS vs. USPS, both of which have their own (...) (26 years ago, 23-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction, lugnet.admin.general)
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(...) I have to admit that I have jumped into bidding when items his G2 before, but I never thought of it as sniping. Many times there are lots that I am interested in, but don't really have the time or the inclination to deal with the nickel and (...) (26 years ago, 25-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Hrmmm, I'm coming in late here, so I'll probably say something and find 10 people who say the same thing later in the thread. Sure, the sellers pay the fees. But if the bidding increments are so high that they repeatedly scare off or prevent (...) (26 years ago, 25-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) That is good to know. So the sellers can shoot themselves in the foot if they're selling high dollar items or they can be smart, but the system doesn't force them to do one thing or the other. I still think making buyers happy is as important (...) (26 years ago, 25-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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Mike Stanley wrote: <snip> (...) Mike very succinctly said what I intended to say in a much more long winded way. My point exactly. I think percentage bumps are a great option but I would also like to see dollar amounts allowed too. Or even both on (...) (26 years ago, 25-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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No, I just talking about the case where someone comes in after the bids have settled for a while, and bids on them at G2. You outbid them, they wait for G2, and bid again. You outbid them, they wait for G2 (lather, rinse, repeat)..... Get the idea? (...) (26 years ago, 25-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) Saw Mike and Larry's posts, and it reminded me to respond to this point: It's actually the buyers who pay the bills. No buyers means no income. Steve (26 years ago, 26-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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(...) I must say that things like that are what make real life auctions exciting. What's even more exciting is when the huge jump DOESN'T stop the bidding... (...) While not as large an excess bid as the examples you mentioned, I just participated (...) (26 years ago, 28-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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| | Re: Proxy ratcheting: How do auction systems work?
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(...) Large jumps delight me. I've had lots that were bickering in the $1 range suddenly be upped by bidder # 1 to $3. Then, after being raised to $3.10 by #2, the #1 it again to $7. I'm delighted because I wouldn't expect it to make it that far on (...) (26 years ago, 29-Apr-99, to lugnet.market.auction)
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| | Re: Proxy ratcheting: How do auction systems work?
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(...) But I'm not bidder. --Todd (26 years ago, 5-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.pun)
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