 | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur
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| | | (...) Ah. But I don't live in the USA; I live in Scotland (think Whisky, Haggis, Great Scenery & Rain). Where I live only 1 or 2 home-owners are killed by burglars each year. In 2000 there were a total of 64 (sixy-four) handgun offences in Scotland. (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) Pittsburgh, PA alone has about that many offenses each month. Maybe it's because we spell offenses with an "s" rather than a "c." (...) That suggests an interesting thought experiment, which I pose to our resident self-proclaimed "gun toting (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | (...) Well you would kind of have to now wouldn't you? Of course enacting regulation in the first place and no impact on the crime rate so I don't see why deregulation would either. -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) The latest stats for Scotland show: Handgun crime is lower now than 10 years ago (they were “banned” in 97). 50% of gun crime involves air weapons. Gun deaths per 100,000 = 0.12 (in the USA it is 4.08 - that's 3400% higher!) I think overall (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Chris Maddison
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| | | | | | (...) Gotta stop ya right there. I think there should be a ban on certain firearms - Joe Schlub has no need to go buy an Uzi, AK-47, grenade launcher, etc. Sure, recreational shooting and all, yeah. These were weapons designed and built to take (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | (...) What's the problem? Under certain circumstances freemen have the right, and perhaps the duty, to take human lives in the defense of their home or homelands. Tool designed for the purpose of taking human life in the hands of the rightfully (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Terry Prosper
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| | | | | | (...) I don't know the guy personnally, but one thing I can tell you, he is FAR from being an idiot. In fact, calling him an idiot because you don't like him and don't agree to his opinions makes me believe you are probably not as intelligent as he (...) (21 years ago, 7-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | (...) Well if you are going to dig up old threads on this subject then you should probably read (URL) this one.> (...) Every country and US State that has enacted gun control laws has not had any noticable difference in gun crimes. The only thing (...) (21 years ago, 10-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) From this very thread: (URL) crime is lower now (in Scotland) than 10 years ago (they were "banned" in 97)." Scott A (21 years ago, 10-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | (...) Also from that same post. "I think overall gun crime is rising (perhaps we should ban all guns?), but I doubt you’ll find data that suggest increased gun ownership in the UK would improve things?" Well guess what, the gun crime rate in the (...) (21 years ago, 10-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | (...) Let's assume that's true. Look back to 10-15 years ago; there were large fluctuations in gun crime in the USA caused by the "shall-issue" laws. So your comparison with Bonnie Scotland is bogus. (...) Are you blind? Read what I said again: (...) (21 years ago, 11-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | (...) Did you read what you wrote? (...) So making Hadguns illegal has only caused criminals to use other guns. (What a surprise.) Have you ever heard of the Black Market. Criminals will always have guns. (...) can draw is that both sides are using (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) That's not quite right. Logically, data cannot be used selectively to demonstrate the efficacy of gun control laws. However, it does not logically follow, therefore, that no correlation exists between gun control and gun crime. I happen to (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | | (...) As half-a-million legally owned guns are stolen in the USA each year, I'd suggest gun crime is somewhat dependent on lack of gun control legislation. ;) Ownership is one thing; ownership without responsibility is a different kettle of fish. (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I agree with that. Now I am not an NRA member but one of their biggest "causes" (for lack of a better word) is insisting on responsible owenership. They also support mandatory minimum prison sentances for persons who commit crimes with guns. (...) (21 years ago, 13-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) "Insisting" is not a word that I think the NRA would use or want you to use. "Insisting" would means that they back mandatory gun safety courses as a precursor to gun ownership, something I don't believe they back (they want no impediments to (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) And scissors, pencils, and LEGO all have a primary function which has nothing to do with the ending or maiming of a life. What is a gun's *primary* function? As soon as you start realizing you can't sit there and say, "Well, such-n-such can (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) But a gun's purpose isn't interently to shoot a person; that's an inferential purpose. By extension, the purpose of a pair of scissors is to cut things, therefore I can cut someone's throat with them, so scissors should be banned. A baseball (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) (snipping rest of silly examples) The primary purpose of a gun is to shoot something - the primary purpose of a handgun is to shoot someone. The reason that they were developed in the first place were to shoot someone. The primary purpose of a (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Doh! Well, I guess that's right, but see below: (...) So you're saying that my specious argument (which took up lot of space) and Dave's specious argument (which also took up a lot of space) were of the same spacious specious species? After (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: <snip> (...) But are you a master debater? Dave K -I says pardon??? (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Hence I didn't say that the inherent purpose of a gun is to shoot someone. However, the 'usual' purpose of a gun *user* is to shoot at someone, either in an act of "defense" or in an act of crime. Maybe to scare, maybe to intimidate, and maybe (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Okay, but now we're back to "guns don't kill people; people kill people." If you wish to condemn guns based on their "intent," then you can't simply abandon that argument in favor of the user's "'usual' purpose." You seem to be claiming (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I was cutting the other side some slack with my 'diplomatic wording'. It's called being nice to the other side. It is my personal contention that a gun's main purpose is to kill/main someone else in front of the gun, and I have as yet to be (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Specifically what I said was: "Anyone that tries to take away my constitutionally protected fundamental rights better find a cure for brain lead first." (...) One that recognizes Freedom was purchased in blood. I highly doubt that I will ever (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Psst! Hey Mike, just for an FYI--we're in the 21st century. What worked in 1776 may not work so much right now. But that's just my personal opinion. And I'll point out once again that the 'establishment' has nukes and what else comes with the (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Your right but the guns in the other 200ish million homes does. (...) Even a Muskett in everyone's hands would still work. The modern Military can not defend itself from millions of people attacking them in their own bases. (I honestly don't (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) I could not resist to comment: 1-americans must *really* feel lonely, at 1.4 per home! (*) 2-Those 200million guns (or whatever the figure) can never work as one. For starters, no wanna-be-oppressor would be dumb enough not to have a power (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) And I don't understand why you have a difficult time grasping the truth. 1776 history shows the differential in technology between the ruling powers and the common man to be rather (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Maybe in Canada but not here in the U.S. (...) The only thing that garuntees the right to vote is the armed citizenry. (...) And won't be so long as we retain the ability to combat such opressors. (...) So long as I am armed my vote can never (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Constant avoidance of the truth does not make the truth go away. A citizen cannot purchase an F22. A citizen cannot have at his or her disposal an ICBM. A citizen can only have, at best, a gun. This makes the differntial rather large. It's the (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) However, fighter jets and ICBMs don't "hold" territory. Just look at what's going on in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine for examples of what an "armed" citizenry might be able to do to resist oppressors. (...) Right now the situation is not (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) A cynic might even claim that the only reason the civil rights movement progressed was that a white minister was killed... See: (URL) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) And I mentioned that in other countries, an armed citizenry is needed in order for them to make it to the end of a day. Are you saying that America is on par with Afghanistan? That you face the same problems? (...) Cites please. Show me at (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Explain the Civil War (from {either} vantage point). (...) That is an extremely false analogy - is Frank saying that we need to have flintlock rifles and muskets? No, so where does this stuff about candles and dirt come in? Technological (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) My vote has no power at all. The power of the people is derived from their status of being collectively stronger than the military forces of the government. I seriously doubt that will ever need to be used, but so long as the government has (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Well, call my old man paranoid, but he is convinced the "smaller" nukes just okayed by the Senate are for use "in country." I generally support the right of citizens to be armed at the same level as the professional military, but I think I'll (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I think if it actually came to nukes everyone lost already. Of course I happen to think oblivion is better than slavery, but I would still consider that losing. (I may be a little crazy, but I am not stupid.) -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | (...) I could be difficult and argue the definition of is*, but I think your logically right. ;-) There are quite a few things that might be responsible for the decrease in crime, like the increased rate of incarceration of criminals for example. I (...) (21 years ago, 13-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Mike, for maximum effect: "I could be difficult and argue what the definition of is is". All I do is give, JOHN (21 years ago, 13-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Citation, please. Dave! (21 years ago, 11-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | (...) Online, I have no idea. Now in the papers, on the radio, on TV there have been numerous citations of studies which indicate that the crime rate as gone down but the brutality of crimes that do happen has increased, giving the overall (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) I would add to that the media slogan "if it bleeds, it leads" in terms of priority of news coverage. At least one study has demonstrated that murder rates have gone down by something like 18% over some recent period of time, but news coverage (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) Living in fear helps us all become good consumers. Have you never heard of Edward Bernase or his uncle? Scott A “I'm proud to be maladjusted and to which I call upon you to continue to be maladjusted." MLK (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | (...) Ah, yes, but death by Claymores was twice that, death by Haggis twice the Claymore rate, and death by Single Malt...don't even get me started! -->Bruce<-- (yes, I was named after that Bruce) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) ...too true. The biggest killer in Scotland is actually the deep-fat-fryer (aka "chip-pan"). When my countrymen boil vegetables... it is usually in lard! Basically, if one can fit a food item in, that's the way to cook it. This includes: (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Laswell
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| | | | (...) Okay... Let me toss out a few numbers to put this a bit more into perspective: Scotland Population (ca. 1991): 5,102,400 Population Density: 169/sq. mi. US Population (ca. 2000): 281,421,906 (55x Scotland) Population Density: 80/sq. mi. (0.47x (...) (21 years ago, 10-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) Does that really surprise you? I expect every hamlet, village, town and city on the planet has a greater population density than the whole of Scotland - think about it. Heck, my office has a population density of 200,000 / sq. mi... and there (...) (21 years ago, 11-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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