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| | | (...) And I wear pink to boot! Well... no, not really. Though when pastels were fashionable on men (a la 'Miami Vice'), I did own a pink shirt. That was also about the same time when my white jean jacket was accidentally washed with my sisters pink (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Spencer Nowak
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| | | | "Dubya is singularly incompetent. He is trashing American influence for no good reason, destroying whatever trust we had with Middle-Eastern countries," What influence? As far as i know, we never had much influence over any of those countries... (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) Since Dubya has been claiming that this will stabilize the region and reduce the threat of terrorism, then the burden of proof is 100% on Dubya to demonstrate that unilateral invasion of an Arab state will NOT result in a rise in terrorism (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —David Koudys
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| | | | | (...) This is the def'n of many many national leaders--heck, I'd throw my leader, JC in there just to poke fun at him--he's unopposed, he's a nut ;), and Canada has... well, not too many WoMD ;)... What gives you Yanks the right to tell some other (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | (...) What's really sick is that so many people think it is perfectly acceptable to let millions of Iraqi people suffer, in fear of their lives, under a brutal dictatorship, when we could easily free them. (URL) Petrucelli (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli writes: <snip> (...) What's even sicker is equating wanting a peaceful solution to the Iraqi situation to doing nothing at all. War will kill Iraqi people. "Easily free them"? What? from their lives on (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | (...) What the heck are you talking about? Unlike World War 2 we (any "Western" country) do not carpet bomb cities anymore. The big Tomahawk cruise missles are accurate to within half a meter, let alone the smaller missles. Civilian casualties would (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | (...) You are spot on, Mike! Terrorists fear strength and feed on weakness, not the other way around. God, why is this concept so friggin' hard to understand?? People say "if we attack Iraq, we will be bringing more terrorist attacks upon (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Patrick O'Donnell
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Fight this war now before our ill-equiped childeren have to do so. While we're sending our kids to dance lessons and soccer practice, they're having their kids bow down to hate americans and teaching pre-teens to fire automatic weapons. I'm (...) (22 years ago, 15-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | (...) And what was Afghanistan? Will invading Iraq be any more decisive? ROSCO (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Can you elaborate on that? Although we haven't won the peace yet, that war was won pretty decisively, contrary to what the naysayers predicted. (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I think it amy be in reference to a few things--the idiot in charge was replaced with, what was it, 4 other idiots? The 'Cartels', as it were? Are the Afgan folks any better off? They died during the 'military action' and now they have (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Standard of living in Iraq is now 50% below what it was pre Saddam. Could it get worse if we "lost the peace"? Sure. Do I trust Bush to do a good job? No. What if the UN and the IMF/World Bank are involved? Even worse. So, no win situation. (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) So I'm asking with all seriousness and no veil of ulterior motive--what do we do? Justice must prevail, if we are to hold to our own ideals. How do we achieve justice in this situation? Dave K (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Why is it the job of the US to bring justice to the world? (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Well, my def'n of 'we' woudn't necessarily be "the US", for then it woudn't be we, as in me... but I digress... ;) I was thinking more along the lines of "if we (as in 'civilized society' whether it be the UN, or such other institution) see (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | This is outrageous (not what you think) was Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.. —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) You know I have been thinking about this since I posted my original messages. What do we do about it? I mean Afganistan is a poor example of how to "help." At the same time one must recognize that while Afgans are still living in sub-standard (...) (22 years ago, 15-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Why us? and if us, why this way? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) (URL) always agree with Hanson but he's right this time. Even if you think there's a moral obligation (that the US somehow has gotten stuck with ) to right every wrong (which I do not! I go ONLY as far as saying we ought to clean up the messes (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) It is all too easy to demonise France, China and Russia; but the reality is that most nations are against this folly. As far as I know, there are only two nations where the majority of the population support the looming war: the USA and (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) As I've mentioned, I deplore this stupid, unjustified, pre-emptive, and distracting war. Having said that, my impression has been that France, China, and Russia are particularly demonized at least in part because they have presented themselves (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —Fredrik Glöckner
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I read in a newspaper the other day that, according to a poll, 42% of the US population thought that the reason for the plans for war against Iraq, was that Iraq was allegely behind the 911 attacks on WTC and Pentagon. If the result from this (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) God only knows what the other 58% think! ;) Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I've heard figures like that, and you're absolutely correct that the trend is worrying. Of similar concern is the tendency to group Saddam and al Qaeda together simply because they can be broadly categorized at "Arabs who hate the United (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Fredrik: As an american myself I can assure you that most americans are as dumb as hammers. And about as deft as hammers too in their handling of foreign affairs. I'll just basically quote myself from another thread here... Bush (and Blair) Flatly (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | It just goes to show what happens to you when English is not the tongue of your parents' household... It was bugging me so I looked it up... It's supposed to be "dumb as a sack of hammers" or "dumb as a bag of hammers." Apparently, there is even (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) <snip> (...) Canada is in this list? This is why I disdain American political hacks (of course I distain Canadian political hacks as well... ;) ). I don't recall Canada ever 'begging' protection from the US. I don't recall Canada ever (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Nor do I. Canada has been a staunch friend of the US far more often than not. (...) Here I think you may want to check your recollection better. Who mans the DEW? (...) I'd not be so dismissive so quickly. His arguments are sound, they're just (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Thanks Larry--my apologies for being abrupt. (...) DEW? Most times I love acronyms... (...) To this I agree--throwing our hats into the same ring as those who commit atrocities is the wrong thing to do. But here we sit in the 21st centruy, in (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Distant Early Warning. The network of radar bases in Alaska and Canada's far north intended to give the earliest possible terrestrial warning of incoming transpolar missile attack targeted at either the US or Canada. Not the most critical (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Why us? and if us, why this way? —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) 100% agreement with those conclusions without regard as to how one reasons to get there. My one caveat would be that we must also keep the peace whilst backing away from these complicated international entanglements. America should be a benign (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) It is not, and since 12.09.02[1] there has been even less of a stomach for it. It is everyone’s "job" to bring justice to the world... at the micro and macro level. Invading Iraq is not "justice", nor is bribing other dictators in order to get (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Does Bush want diplomacy to work? Scott A (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) What does diplomacy accomplish? I mean *really*? Please cite examples of diplomacy working *anywhere* in the world, but not, of course, "diplomacy" conducted in surrender agreements. The fact is that "diplomacy" is merely a synonym for (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes: <snip> (...) Yeah! Nuke 'em 'til the glow, then shoot 'em in the dark, and let God sort 'em out!! Rah Rah!! Go Team! Dave K (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Are you honestly trying to say that diplomacy is universally and always unsuccessful in all cases everywhere on the planet? That nothing has ever been accomplished by diplomacy? You may wish to modify your statement or at least limit its (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Okay, I was thinking in terms of *major* global conflicts, such as war. More specifically, I'm looking for examples of diplomacy effectively dealing with an aggressor (nation or entity). JOHN (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Cuban Missle Crisis. Defused through diplomacy. Both sides got something they wanted. Perceptually Kruschev lost, and was deposed eventually because of it. -->Bruce<-- (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Also, the Morrocan "affairs", in 1904 and 1907, between Germany and France. Things were *hot* back then (for the time standards, that is). Pedro (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Huh?? Defused through us blockading Cuba and threatening to go to war if the missiles weren't removed, then refusing to blink. That would be more like it, I would say. Diplomacy was only the communication channel, not the defuser. Oh, and (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) But we did blink, if not quite as hard and fast. That's the whole point. Both sides had escalated the confrontation to the point that neither saw a way out, but continuing it was too horrifying for words. Only through diplomacy was the (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Big stick diplomacy is not the same as "diplomacy". Without strength, diplomacy is impotent, as Larry pointed out. One cannot negotiate from a position of weakness. That is why having a strong America is so good for the world-- because of the (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Of course it is. The implied threat of force in disputes of this nature is part of the diplomacy. It is not a simplistic, "Do as ah sez or I'll hurt youz real bad," - unless you are incompetent, that is, or simply bent on war ("Violence is the (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli writes: <snip for later... so many things for later... there isn;t enuf time in the day!> (...) On this we totally agree! This is another thing I get into with my SO--she went to that quiet little rally in (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) Let's attack this point by point. 1. If you're going to accuse Saddam of murders he has not yet committed, then you absolutely must provide evidence that he will do so. Since you're proposing some sort of comparision between the relative (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | Yeah, that war in Iraq is going to be about as useful as the "War on Drugs"... (URL) guess it's not the case that Shrub Jr. is just attempting the big oil grab for himself and his buddies and making Joe and Jane Sixpack foot the bill of the (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | (...) imperialism. (...) And that right there is everything that is wrong with US foreign policy. We can easily do the right thing (not just in Iraq but everywhere) and don't. No one, not even the politicians who want the war, (and by coincidence (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | (...) I could have guessed this. That's just SO wrong! The campaign slogan of Shrub's post-Iraq opponent for the presidency: "One more such victory and we are lost." When you figure out who said it and why it was said a divine light will descend (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | (...) Shrub. Hmm. To you have "thickets" in the US? Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —David Koudys
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| | | | | | (...) <snip> (...) k, 2 things we agree on Dave K (22 years ago, 14-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | (...) I have seen too many stupidly drunk people (mostly relatives) to even want to bother with alcohol. That and the smell of beer make me nauseous. (...) You know I think 99.9 percent of the time we all agree on the desired result, the (...) (22 years ago, 15-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | (...) Saudi Arabia and Kuwait come to mind readily. (...) "Desert Storm" did not happen in a vacuum. (...) He doesn't care about the US, except that we got in the way of his last oil grab (but helped the previous attempt). I have seen no compelling (...) (22 years ago, 13-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) More on this: (URL) (22 years ago, 23-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | (...) --Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has --to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the --anti-war protesters are marching to defend a --government which stops its people exercising that --freedom. particularly interesting (...) (22 years ago, 23-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —John Neal
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| | | | (...) protestor who takes up an anti-war sign. JOHN (22 years ago, 23-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —David Koudys
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| | | | (...) <snip> (...) (URL) should be required reading for all the gun-toting "Shoot first, ask questions later" yahoos who think because they have the ability to shoot a gun, that using one solves problems better than any other way. Anti-war does (...) (22 years ago, 23-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —John Neal
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| | | | | (...) I appreciated the approach of this article, because I agreed with their premise-- that to simply cry "no war" without providing any alternate solution is mindless. It is unfortunate that the examples they gave to elucidate their hypothesis in (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes: <snip> Thanks for this cite, David, it's interesting and thought provoking reading. (...) other approach, it isn't always the best choice. Let's assume for this post that it's our problem to solve (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: I'm just going to take a back seat.... Re: You Can Lead A Horse To Water.... —Frank Filz
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| | | | (...) Well of course many people think we shouldn't have placed the sanctions on Iraq. Of course I'm not sure what they think we should have done to convince Iraq to "play nice". Of course there is a point that perhaps we weren't justified in (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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