 | | Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Frank Filz
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| | | Well, I've stayed out of here for a while, but something I just read has compelled me to speak out. This statement from CNN ( (URL) ): (...) If Israeli citizens are killed because the Palestinians don't like the results of a UN investigation, then I (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | (...) I often wonder what Palestinians must think of the UN when resolution after resolution is passed condemning Israel's actions and nothing is done. (...) That is the extremist view. Extremists exist on both sides. There are many in Israel who (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | (...) Welcome back! (...) I fully expect that there was no massacre in Jenin, but how much do we individuals really know? And how much does the average Palestinian know? It seems possible (though unlikely) there there was some naughtyness going on (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | (...) I would have said "experience" rather than "bias"... After they dropped a bomb on a residential area on the last month, Ariel Sharon congratulated his forces on the strike and he described it as "a great success". That says it all. Scott A (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) because (...) I think it amounts to the same thing. I guess I'd prefer clinical detachment when discussing these issues. (...) Well, I don't think there's anything exactly wrong with that, as is. If the commoners are going to shield the (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | (...) Everything I have read suggests that those in the area had no idea this guy was there. (...) Dropping bombs on residential areas is like pouring petrol on to flames. It will not reduce the level of conflict in the longer-term. How many people (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | [snip] (...) it, (...) The reason no one (i.e. current political leaders everywhere) is doing anything is really quite simple. To do so would require them to admit that what they have been doing (or not doing) up till now was wrong. I do not know (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | (...) There were a variety of contributing factors, but basically Enron engaged in good-old-fashioned price manipulation. Bruce (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | | | | | | (...) anything (...) (the (...) with (...) wrong. (...) Enron did that after the government imposed price caps. When demand exceeds supply and the price is fixed eliminating the ability to reduce demand by raising prices, guess what happens. That (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Oh, come come now. If we're going to go with sound bites, let's at least use an accurate one, eh?... here's one miles and miles closer to the truth: "basically, the government of California tried to repeal the law of supply and demand, with (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) I would agree that there probably was "nautiness" on the part of the (some) Israelis. I have no doubt that there was "nautiness" on the part of the (some) Palestinians. I certainly agree that the (many) Palestinians are inclined to believe (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Ronald Vallenduuk
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| | | | The real worry at the moment is that no-brain greedy Texan clown that happens to run the show in Washington. For some strange reason american presidents feel they're president of the world. If George Dubya decides Ariel Sharon is the goody and (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Mike Petrucelli
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| | | | (...) Maybe because the international court is something no sane nation should support "as is." The lack of rights to a fair jury trial, language translator, and legal counsel are the 3 biggest reasons to NOT support the international court. It (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | (...) That sounds like quite a convincing case, perhaps they should have arrested him and put him on trial rather than murder women kids to get him? (...) What "risks" do Israeli F16 pilots face as they drop bombs on residential areas? Equipment (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) A good starting point would be to review the accounts of Israeli armed forces personal and government reports which come to light as the Israeli 30-year discloser law brings reveals them. Analysis of these is very slowly revealing the truth. (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Frank Filz
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| | | | (...) I'm not sure I care who started it (1). What I do care about are the following points: - That we acknowledge that the Jewish people had cause to trust that no existing government would protect their rights. - That we acknowledge that the (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) I think the Israeli people *do* need to be turned out of their homes - just like they were in Sinai. Israel needs to respect international law and pull back its people to the pre-67 borders. Scott A (22 years ago, 7-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Frank Filz
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| | | | (...) If you bothered to read my posts, you would realize that I support turning Israelis out of the illegal settlements. What I was commenting on above is that the solution does not include turning Israelis out of the UN recognized borders, though (...) (22 years ago, 7-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) Frank, You can't really expect me to read all your posts on this issue just to be sure you mean what you are saying? Asking for Israel to be disestablished is an extreme view held by a minority. (...) The UN borders are not the pre-67 borders (...) (22 years ago, 7-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Frank Filz
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| | | | (...) Ok, I guess I'm done with this debate. Sorry for intruding. If people aren't going to bother reading the whole debate it isn't worthwhile. Scott - it's clear that you just like to jump on the one point in a debate which bugs you, and can't be (...) (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | (...) The statement I responded to was unequivocal. You can't really expect me to read all your posts on this issue just to be sure you mean what you are saying? I am sorry this is bothering you, but I think you need to look at my reply a little (...) (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | (...) It seems to me that, after a tiny bit of clarification, the disagreement is over where the boundry line should be drawn. If Scott A is bugging you, just ignore his comments. (...) This seems like an extreme overreaction -- I have read the (...) (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Peruvian Indians [Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks] —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) Israel is the regional superpower which is backed by the only superpower left. As such, Israel can defend just about any border it wishes. Israel has expansionist tendencies. It is building homes on land which does not belong to it for (...) (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks] —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | (...) Is this a reference to the Australian eBay auction offering a "Monkey Knife Fight"? At last, a sporting event I'd pay to see! [For the humor impaired: this is a joke!] -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks] —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) This guy is in *serious* denial. His thinking is more dangerous to Israel than Hamas itself. -John (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks] —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | (...) In what way John? Personally, I think what he is trying to do is laudable: (URL) is peace so dangerous in your view? Scott A (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Because the Palestinians are not one-minded. Hamas, for instance, has publically declared their desire to not end their fight until Israel is no longer. Peace is dangerous when one side's idea of it is the elimination of the other side. When I (...) (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | (...) There are those in Israel who want to do the same to the Palestinians. You are using the views of extremists to condemn a whole nation. In the post you responded to I cited two articles. You chose to criticise the one backing dialogue and (...) (22 years ago, 9-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Wanting and doing are two very different things. Besides, I have tried to make distinctions between Palestinian extremists and the GP all the time. It is my criticism of them that *they* aren't making that distinction more. (...) Those views (...) (22 years ago, 9-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | (...) Are you saying Israeli extremists do not murder Palestinians out of pure hate? Are you saying Israeli extremists did not wreck Oslo and Oslo II? (...) I agree they are oppressed. I agree murdering civilians is wrong. I reject the notion that (...) (22 years ago, 13-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) I was making a distinction of intent. The IDF does not *target* the civilian population as Hamas does. Yes, innocents are killed, but not intentionally. I find the distinction crucial. But if you want to make comparisons, answer this: why do (...) (22 years ago, 16-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | (...) What do you mean? Isn't that the goal? The only goal? Isn't saving lives the whole reason for concern? I hope it's not just about retribution for you. (...) This can only be said if you extend the timeframe infinitely. It's like saying there (...) (22 years ago, 16-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) My point is that *any* amount of terrorism is unacceptable. So the fact that the number of homicide bombers reduces from say 10 a month to 2 a month is irrelevant-- *any* amount is too many. (...) What I am trying to point out is that as long (...) (22 years ago, 16-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) But you're also saying, in essence, that two is just as bad as ten. And that's simply not so. Two is a big improvement over ten. And it's reasonable to think that maybe whatever tactics can move the number from ten to two might also move it (...) (22 years ago, 16-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) One man's terrorist is an other man's partisan. Marek Edelman was one of the leaders of the Warsaw ghetto uprising of the Jews against the Nazis in 1943. Is he a terrorist or a freedom fighter? Should his living relatives be punished for his (...) (22 years ago, 22-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Irrelevant. I reject your comparison of Nazi Germany's occupation and Israel's, and am rather offended by it. -John (22 years ago, 24-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) lol. I thought you'd say that. I think it is relevant. (...) I thought you'd say that too. But the truth is Mr Edelman probably knows more ablout the subject than either you or I. This is what I read about him a few days ago in the Guardian: (...) (22 years ago, 2-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | (...) In the past it has deliberately targeted non-combatants. Now it acts with (at least) complete disregard for civilian losses. (...) I'm sure some Israelis are happy - don't doubt that. I'm sure not all Palestinians celebrate – don’t deny that. (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..) —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) Or should you, for instance, carry a burden of guild because your great-great-great-gr...eat-great- great-great-great-gr...eat-great- great-great-great-gr...eat-great- great-great-great-gr...eat-great- great-great-great-gr...eat-great- (...) (22 years ago, 19-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks] —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | (...) I am not understanding your comments here, John. Here is a guy who despite what must be tremendous personal loss and grief is STILL seeking peace. Rather than look for fault on the other side, he is introspecting and finding flaws with the (...) (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks] —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) What's so hard to understand? The guy is not grasping reality: "The Palestinians cannot drive us away - they have long acknowledged our existence. This is simply not true, as I cited. They have been ready to make peace with us; it is we who (...) (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks] —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) John, "They" would say that their attacks are in response to Israeli oppression and murder. Indeed, there is little doubt that the current Intifada started with Sharon’s deliberately provocative trip to Haram al-Sharif. Further, there is (...) (22 years ago, 9-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Shutting things down--(was-Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks) —David Koudys
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| | | | | (...) There was a scene from 'Sports Night'... A group of religious zealots called in a bomb threat to the local radio station because they didn't like the morning show DJ doing an imitation of Jesus. The reason they didn't like the imitation? The (...) (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks —Dave Schuler
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| | | | (...) On the bright side, they'd (we'd) be talking past each other in other groups, so at least it's confined to OT.Debate... Dave! (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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