Subject:
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Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:15:44 GMT
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Viewed:
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748 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
>
> > > > > Hamas, for instance, has publically declared their desire to not end their
> > > > > fight until Israel is no longer. Peace is dangerous when one side's idea
> > > > > of it is the elimination of the other side.
>
> > > > There are those in Israel who want to do the same to the Palestinians. You
> > > > are using the views of extremists to condemn a whole nation.
>
> > > Wanting and doing are two very different things. Besides, I have tried to
> > > make distinctions between Palestinian extremists and the GP all the time.
> > > It is my criticism of them that *they* aren't making that distinction more.
>
> > > Murdering civilians the way Palestinian terrorists do is WAY wrong-- it
> > > doesn't matter what their grievances are-- it is *never*
> > > justified. They become instantly as guilty as those who oppress them. Do
> > > you agree?
>
> > I agree they are oppressed. I agree murdering civilians is wrong. I reject
> > the notion that there is an acceptable ?way? to murder civilians. Do you
> > know otherwise?
>
> I was making a distinction of intent. The IDF does not *target* the civilian
> population as Hamas does. Yes, innocents are killed, but not intentionally. I
> find the distinction crucial.
In the past it has deliberately targeted non-combatants. Now it acts with
(at least) complete disregard for civilian losses.
>
> But if you want to make comparisons, answer this: why do we see 1,000s of
> Palestinians dancing in the streets and eating candy upon learning of Israeli
> women and children being blown up by homicide bombers? Do you see that type of
> behavior on the streets of Tel Aviv when innocent Palestinians are killed?
I'm sure some Israelis are happy - don't doubt that. I'm sure not all
Palestinians celebrate – don’t deny that. The Palestinian population are
desperate as the Israel government is oppressing them. It murders their
children. It steals their land. They have very little hope.
>
> > > For the most part, the IDF violence upon the Palestinians is in retaliation
> > > for terrorist attacks. The same holds true for Israeli occupation.
>
> > High Court decision gives green light for collective punishment
> > http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE151272002?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\ISRAEL/OCCUPIED+TERRITORIES
>
> > ?This judgment gives a green light for collective punishment in the Occupied
> > Territories? ?Destroying Palestinian homes to punish whole families for a
> > crime committed by others, is a war crime.?
>
> Actually, I happen to think that that is an excellent policy of deterrent.
> Those who wouldn't think twice about destroying Israeli families might think
> twice if they knew that *their* families will be punished for *their* actions.
Do you think this concept should be extended to the Israeli population? To
the USA? The UK? Should I pay my sister's speeding fine?
>
> Incidently, where is AI's outrage against war crimes of homicidal bombers who
> slaughter civilians?
Take the time to check their site. They condemn all HR violations. They
condem the slaughter of civilians on both sides.
>
> > > They *have* to respond lest they embolden the terrorists.
> > > That is a simple fact. I know you don't agree, and I'm not willing to
> > > debate it. The *worst* thing one can do in response to terrorism is to do
> > > nothing--it is like a big green light to these people.
>
> > Perhaps the Palestinians are saying the same of the Israelis? Anyhow, I'm
> > not suggesting they "do nothing".
>
> What *do* you suggest they do?
Respect international law. Is that too much to ask?
>
> > > Even if Israel stopped responding in force to terrorist attacks, they would
> > > continue.
>
> > I expect they would - but the number would reduce. The number will reduce
> > further when Israel gives back what is has stolen. At that point the "GP"
> > will turn away from violence and Hammas will wither.
>
> Yes, well, this is where we differ. Maybe the number would reduce, but so
> what? There will *always* be terrorist attacks on Israel by extremist Arabs
> until the last Israeli is dead. No amount of land, or reparations, or anything
> will ever change that.
One can say the same about any conflict.
> It is naive and dangerous to think otherwise.
With respect, IMO your whole world view is naive and dangerous.
> Even
> *if* the Palestinians make peace with Israel, they will have made enemies with
> Hamas and other such terrorist organizations-- Hamas' existence is not
> dependent upon Palestinian support, but rather Saudi and Iraqi $$$.
LOL... and the US keeps both Saudi and Israel afloat.... and Iraq in the
recent past.
>
> The dirty little secret is that extremist Islamists are just as much the Arab
> world's enemy as they are Israel's or the US's.
Is that really a secret?
Scott A
>
> -John
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