Subject:
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Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:51:21 GMT
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Viewed:
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806 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> My point is that *any* amount of terrorism is unacceptable. So the fact that
> the number of homicide bombers reduces from say 10 a month to 2 a month is
> irrelevant-- *any* amount is too many.
But you're also saying, in essence, that two is just as bad as ten. And that's
simply not so. Two is a big improvement over ten. And it's reasonable to
think that maybe whatever tactics can move the number from ten to two might
also move it further in the right direction.
You say that the Palestinians "need to reject such tactics and...forge their
own path of peace" but I wonder what their incentive to do so is. If they were
to do that, I would guess that more and more Palestinians would be robbed and
brutalized. Why would they assume anything else?
Palestinian children grow up hating the Jews because Israel kills their mommies
and daddies. I assume that's the same reason that Israeli children grow up
hating Palestinians. Both groups live in fear of each other. Both groups.
It's not one-sided. You loathe the terrorist tactics of the Palestinians
because they target civilians, but how does the unrelated Palestinian on the
street feel when rockets blow up the bedroom next to where they're sleeping and
the children inside? To the man on the ground, that loss feels the same. Do
you reassure the grief-stricken Palestinian that at least Israel didn't _mean_
to kill their children? Is there any reason that said Palestinian should even
believe that?
> At this point, I think the Israeli mindset is "At least it's perpetual."
> These people are fighting for their right to exist against those who
> reject that right. If defending against perpetual violence is what
> it's going to take, then so be it.
What's so bad about making friends with your neighbors? Maybe they should
start doing cross-cultural barn-raisings. They aren't fighting for the right
to exist. They're fighting for the right to keep stolen lands. Further, I
would say that moving would make more sense than defending that particular
piece of land against perpetual violence -- though I don't think it's needed.
> No, but it is the reason for their not having a State decades ago. Think of
> the $1,000,000s worth of arms given to the Palestinians to fight the • Israelis--
> what a sad waste!
Why do you never see the converse? What about the $billions given to the
Israelis to fight the Palestinians, Egyptians, Lebanese, etc. Why isn't that a
sad waste too?
> The Palestinians are pawns to the Arab world to impliment
> the Arab world's anti-Israeli agenda.
The Israelis are pawns to the Arab world to impliment
the Western world's anti-Arab agenda.
> The fact is that Israel has a much greater incentive to
> befriend Palestine than does the Arab world.
That's how I see it. So I keep wondering why they don't.
> > As Palestine forms a coherent legal body and sense of
> > self, they will reject Hamas because Hamas will bring trouble. Today Hamas
> > is not bringing trouble.
>
> Chris, today dozens (100's?) are being indoctrinated by Hamas to kill
> themselves and take out as many women and children as they can in the process.
> Hamas IS trouble.
But not _more_ trouble than the alternative. On the one hand, they could
reject violence and be swept up in the "demographic revolution" quietly. And
on the other they can organize a resistance like Hamas and maybe eventually
Israel will withdraw its wounded paw. It amazes me that you refuse so
adamantly to try to see it from their perspective.
> > It is the system that needs to change. The traditional way to make people
> > behave like they have something to lose is to give them something to lose.
>
> > We need to make the lives of the Palestinians better so that they have a
> > reason to reject the violence.
>
> > > The dirty little secret is that extremist Islamists are just as much the
> > > Arab world's enemy as they are Israel's or the US's.
>
> > Absolutely! But the impoverished, repressed, ignorant commoners don't see it
> > that way. They think that the violent extremists are the key to their
> > future. We need to remove that illusion if we ever want them to know peace.
>
> Then we agree.
But aparently not about how to do so.
Chris
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