Subject:
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Re: "Peace" can be dangerous (was: Re: Peruvian Indians [Re: ..)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:27:48 GMT
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Viewed:
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799 times
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> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > > Even if Israel stopped responding in force to terrorist attacks, they
> > > > would continue.
> > > I expect they would - but the number would reduce. The number will reduce
> > > further when Israel gives back what is has stolen. At that point the "GP"
> > > will turn away from violence and Hammas will wither.
> > Yes, well, this is where we differ. Maybe the number would reduce, but so
> > what?
> What do you mean? Isn't that the goal? The only goal? Isn't saving lives
> the whole reason for concern? I hope it's not just about retribution for >you.
My point is that *any* amount of terrorism is unacceptable. So the fact that
the number of homicide bombers reduces from say 10 a month to 2 a month is
irrelevant-- *any* amount is too many.
> > There will *always* be terrorist attacks on Israel by extremist Arabs
> > until the last Israeli is dead.
> This can only be said if you extend the timeframe infinitely. It's like
> saying there will always be acts of domestic terrorism in the US. It's
> probably true if you're taking a snapshot of fifty year blocks.
What I am trying to point out is that as long as Palestinians support and let
Hamas and other terrorist orgs speak for them, there will be violence. They
need to reject such tactics and groups and forge their own path of peace.
Islamic extremists will never settle for peace unless it is the peace that
comes with the elimination of the State of Israel. They really couldn't care
less about the Palestinian's plight.
> > No amount of land, or reparations, or anything
> > will ever change that.
> I think you're wrong. In fact, I think that no land or reparations are
> needed. Time is enough. But the time needed would decrease if Israel were
> playing the good guy. There is no reason to believe that people as
> individuals -- and more, peoples as cultures, don't or won't change. The one
> thing you can count on is that they _will_.
The next generation of Palestinian children are already being poisoned to hate
the Jews. Time is not enough. Time is working against Palestine, IMO. How
long will Israel put up with these attacks? Rightly or wrongly, I know that if
the US were in Israel's shoes, we would have paved Palestine *long* before this.
> > It is naive and dangerous to think otherwise.
> Unlike assuming that a perpetual vengence and death machine is the solution?
At this point, I think the Israeli mindset is "At least it's perpetual." These
people are fighting for their right to exist against those who reject that
right. If defending against perpetual violence is what it's going to take,
then so be it.
> > Even *if* the Palestinians make peace with Israel, they will have
> > made enemies with Hamas and other such terrorist organizations
> > -- Hamas' existence is not dependent upon Palestinian support,
> > but rather Saudi and Iraqi $$$.
> Do you think that any amount of Saudi and Iraqi money would bring citizens of
> the MSP area out dancing in the streets at bombings in NYC? I don't. As
> such, it's obvious that it isn't simply fat foreign capital causing
> Palestinian unrest.
No, but it is the reason for their not having a State decades ago. Think of
the $1,000,000s worth of arms given to the Palestinians to fight the Israelis--
what a sad waste! The Palestinians are pawns to the Arab world to impliment
the Arab world's anti-Israeli agenda. Even two-faced Egypt is complicent along
the Gaza border. The fact is that Israel has a much greater incentive to
befriend Palestine than does the Arab world.
> As Palestine forms a coherent legal body and sense of
> self, they will reject Hamas because Hamas will bring trouble. Today Hamas
> is not bringing trouble.
Chris, today dozens (100's?) are being indoctrinated by Hamas to kill
themselves and take out as many women and children as they can in the process.
Hamas IS trouble.
> It is the system that needs to change. The traditional way to make people
> behave like they have something to lose is to give them something to lose.
> We need to make the lives of the Palestinians better so that they have a
> reason to reject the violence.
> > The dirty little secret is that extremist Islamists are just as much the
> > Arab world's enemy as they are Israel's or the US's.
> Absolutely! But the impoverished, repressed, ignorant commoners don't see it
> that way. They think that the violent extremists are the key to their
> future. We need to remove that illusion if we ever want them to know peace.
Then we agree.
-John
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