Subject:
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Re: Is the Palestinian Cause Dead? The Latest Terror Attacks
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 6 Aug 2002 02:20:36 GMT
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Viewed:
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248 times
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Christopher Weeks wrote:
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes:
> > Well, I've stayed out of here for a while, but something I just read has
> > compelled me to speak out.
>
> Welcome back!
>
> > > It [ Hammas ] also said Sunday's attack was carried
> > > out to show its displeasure with results of
> > > a U.N.-sponsored investigation into the
> > > Israeli incursion into the Jenin refugee
> > > camp in April.
> >
> > If Israeli citizens are killed because the Palestinians don't like the
> > results of a UN investigation, then I fear they have no intention of
> > accepting any resolution towards peace (short of elimination of Israel).
>
> I fully expect that there was no massacre in Jenin, but how much do
> we individuals really know? And how much does the average Palestinian know?
> It seems possible (though unlikely) there there was some naughtyness going on
> and there is a coverup. What if they know something we don't? Further, what
> if we know something they don't? What if the Palestinians are more likely to
> believe the story about the Israeli devils murdering their kin en masse because
> of their personal bias?
I would agree that there probably was "nautiness" on the part of the
(some) Israelis. I have no doubt that there was "nautiness" on the part
of the (some) Palestinians. I certainly agree that the (many)
Palestinians are inclined to believe that much more happened. However,
killing Israeli non-combatants because one doesn't like the result of a
third party review suggests the (some) Palestinians are unwilling to
accept any story other than the one which paints them as blameless
victims. If one side of an argument shows no inclination to see that the
other side might have a point, then there is way for logic to win
through to a solution. This is the problem I see. Logic will not
convince the Palestinians (and to a lesser extent the Israelis) to see
their way to a solution.
> I think the notion that "they have no intention of accepting any resolution
> towards peace" is probably an oversimplification. I think the Palestinians and
> the Israelis need to be guided into seeing one another as valuable human beings
> before any reasonable chance for peace will exist. As long as the two groups
> vilify one another they'll keep their horns locked.
That certainly would help. The question is how you do that guidance,
while protecting as many lives as possible, when the deck is so stacked
against the logic of the peace argument. At some point, the only logic
which works is force.
> > I was also very disappointed by the bombing of the university, a
> > university whose presence in the Middle East pre-dates the formation of
> > Israel. What this tells me is that not only do the Palestinians (or at
> > least Hammas) not want Israel to be in the ME, they don't want ANY Jews
> > (even those who were living in the ME prior to the formation of Israel).
>
> Or at least one particualr guy.
I don't think the suicide bombers are working in a vacuum. I think there
are power structures which are playing on the powerless Palestinians and
encouraging these attacks. Those power structures are what needs to be
destroyed (which is what Israel is trying to do, though probably not in
a terribly effective way, when it bombs the home of a extremist faction
leader). Of course in addition to destroying the power structure, one
must also provide an alternative path to the light for the powerless.
> > I honestly think it is time for those countries who wish to see peace,
> > and accept that BOTH Palestinians and Israelis must be part of that
> > peace plan, to enter the Palestinian territory and enforce peace within
> > that territory (including enforcement against Israeli actions). The PA
> > is showing itself completely incapable of controlling the actions of
> > it's people.
>
> I agree. And since the mandate for the existence of Israel came from the UN,
> it ought to be UN forces doing the policing. And they ought to be occupying
> all of Palestine, not just what the Israeli government currently acknowledges.
Agreed. In fact, I'm not convinced they shouldn't police Israel also. I
also think that one of the first things they should do after
establishing a reasonable level of security is dismantle all the illegal
Israeli settlements (certainly all the ones which are illegal even by
Israeli law, and probably any Israeli settlement in the occupied
territories).
I think the 1948 borders of Israel however are not sufficient to provide
Israel with the sense of security it will need.
> > I do not find Israel blameless either, but unless the world is prepared
> > to re-settle the Israeli people someplace else, and to allow them to
> > create a self governing place for themselves, I see no solution. The
> > same is true of the Palestinians, however, they clearly need help in
> > creating that society.
>
> Well, I still think that the notion of "homeland" is a divisive construct that
> should not be encouraged, but seeing that those two groups insist on such a
> thing, I guess I agree. Their areas should be demarcated clearly and the world
> should come down hard on any attacks against the sovereignty of either. But it
> really is a shame that they can't build a democracy that fills both lands and
> is inclusive of both groups.
A homeland is certainly a divisive thing, and I would like to get past
that eventually, but I don't see the Jewish people being able to get
past it until the whole world proves to them that they are due the same
security anyone else is. We have started to provide that proof, at least
in the US, and probably in much of Europe, but the Holocaust and the
rest of the worlds delay in action is a hard thing to overcome.
Again though, we need to keep in mind that the Palestinians need the
same degree of security, though I think they have not been sunk in as
bad a hole (Islam is the dominant religion in a significant part of the
world, what Israelis have done to the Palestinians is definitely less
than what has been done to the Jews [and is at least in part a result of
action against Israel at its formation]).
> Maybe would should trade some of our land for theirs and lease the holy sites
> to Disney for redevelopment.
While that sounds appealing in one way, I don't think it will work. All
it would show the Jewish people is that they are again being forced to
give up their homes in return for someone else's security.
> > I am very troubled by what is going on, and I can see both sides desire
> > and need for their own home. Sadly, the world blew it 70 years ago for
> > the Jewish people, and basically flipped them the bird, and now we are
> > paying the price for that. To get out of this mess, we need to not flip
> > the Palestinians the bird, and at the same time acknowledge the plight
> > of the Jewish people.
>
> Why is it that this seems so easy and obvious when we're just talking about it,
> but no one is doing it?
Because I don't think people are taught to believe that. It is obvious
to those of us who have been taught that all people are worthy. I
suspect that most of those in power feel they benefit from the status
quo.
Frank
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