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(...) website. 'Cause we just don't have enough trouble of our own? ;-) (...) How can a question be logical or not? (...) I think you are looking through a tinted lense. It seems like a pretty evenhanded treatment to me. (...) You and this hound (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: **snip of lots of sensible things** I hate to post a "me too," but Chris and I are so seldom in 100% agreement that I thought it was worth mentioning. Bravo to you, Chris, for a (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Gotta agree with Chris - the desperation seems a bit more on the other side. (...) A propensity for "gayness" may be in someone's gene, it may not. I don't discount it, but I don't accept it out of hand, either. I've been more of the opinion (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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This seems like as good a place as any to jump in. The research i've done shows that a gay scientist found evidence of a gay gene, but no one has been able to duplicate his results. In scientific research, that is a very serious thing. It may have (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You are correct that independent corroboration is vital in verifying scientific observation. It is to the serious discredit of the "gay scientist" that no one else has made an equivalent finding, so we are better off suspending final judgment (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Allegedly two studies duplicated the original results (one currently unpublished). Another did not produce the same results. The sample size was small in all cases - I wouldn't take claims either way as conclusive. (...) What does this have to (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How many attempts have been made to corroborate his findings? (...) I don't know about "very serious" such findings are a part of the scientific process. (...) Sorry? How would that have been better? (...) Why? (...) Gosh. Like what? (...) So (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Quietly coercing other scientists to duplicate research sounds like a more serious issue then a lack of repetability. I'm not sure if I'm parsing your meaning of your last sentence correctly but putting out an idea and seeing if others get the (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ? Cold fusion anyone? I'm afraid I don't know enough about it, but what methods were used by this scientist who found them? Have others tried his same methods? Or their own? How long do they take? How consistant are they? How many cases were (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A number of people duplicated the results by following the same method as the original claimants - but basically those were non-critical attempts (the methods themselves were not initially questioned). I asked my father-in-law at the time why (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) [snip] (...) Interesting. It amuses me to wonder though if the existence of a "gay gene" would be ammunition for the creation scientists to use against the darwinians? Cheers Richie (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It is my understanding that the human brain can "change" according to a person's mental development. If so, then study on the brain to find a common link to homosexuality would be suspect. (...) Handed-ness does not promote a lively-hood that (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In my research I found that there were indeed a total of three tests that showed positive results, unfortuanately all three tests were performed by the same scientist. (...) If science can prove that a gay gene exists, then the Bible has also (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Are you implying that possibly apart from the gay gene question, the 4,000 years of religious doctrine is _correct_? Should someone prove the "gay gene" theory, then we would _finally_ have one case of the doctrine being incorrect? Whatever do (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) he has done it three times himself and succeeded while at least two others have tried and failed. (...) When it comes to researhing genetic behavior, especially one of controversy, care should be taken not to give false hope, or insight (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Your second example is what I was aiming for. (...) Not sure if you're actually agreeing with me or not, but thanks for not attacking me. (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A simple internet search for "gay gene" will give you all the information you're asking for plus some. (...) The Holy Bible directly refers to homosexuality more than once as a sin. (...) I wish your example is how things actually work. (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Most Christians believe the Bible is indeed correct. Should someone prove (...) I'm not sure how this question is intended to be read. (...) Sorry, everywhere else I've specified Christian religion, since I am most familiar with it. Also, i'm (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Although I'm far from being a homophobe, I too would have to assert that heterosexuality would have to be our 'default' setting just for needs of basic continuation of the species. Wasn;t there a hypothesis at one time that homosexuality ws (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Hmm... that leads me to think that he might be baising his data someway (willingly or unwillingly). (...) care to share some of this research? i'm curious, I'm not trying to bait you. -chris (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And? What has to change? What part no longer works? I mean, what if we discover the "cheat-on-your-wife" gene or the "stealing" gene? What if we find out that people are genetically predisposed to behaving in this way? Are they any less "evil" (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Could you cite examples for those of us who don't know to which passages you're referring? Thanks. ~Grand Admiral Muffin Head (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It is neither here nor there. If there is a gay gene, I don't see what the Bible has to do with it. That is a problem for the literalists to wrestle with. (...) No, not at all, except that you seem to interpret the possiblity of a gay gene (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm really curious, because I just don't see how. Does the Bible say "Gayness is by choice"? Does it say "Gayness is not genetic"? Just because someone is genetically predisposed to sinning, does that absolve them from the guilt of the sin? (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I wonder - does "most frequently obsevered" (or perhaps most frequently admitted to?) equate to "default" ? Jennifer (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Doesn't it depend on what the demands are? What if all they want is a fair shot? (...) Probably the same number that are currently labelled criminal for disliking negros. None. You are free to dislike whomever you want. The problem is when you (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Stop making assumptions. I never once stated that I am Christian. I have some depth of knowledge concerning the Holy Bible but that does not make me Christian. I have analyzed the theory of gay-at-birth and dispute it. I have analyzed many of (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Why are you attempting to debate the very nature of Christianity. It has a written instruction perceived to be influenced by a devine entity and has power via the individuals who believe it. Christians are just as free as anybody to believe what (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Maybe you're not understanding the question... I'll try and ask again. What difference does it make whether or not we're genetically predisposed to prefer sin? If I have an urge to steal, to murder, to not worship God, or to be gay, what (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) From the Holy Bible: Leviticus 20:13 1Corinthians 6:9 Romans 1:26-27 While reading these scriptures, it is important to understand the context that they are being used in. Homosexuality is described as a practice, as are incest, beastiality, (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Just asking-- what problem is created for literalists? How does the literal Bible (Old or New Testament) contradict the existance of a gay gene? I honestly can't think of anything that WOULD contradict unless it said somewhere that "God won't (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, if any of your above examples become reality, then the Bible is thereby proven falacious. The Bible is an instruction for Christianity and includes a code of conduct. The Bible should not be used as a source of social reform, but as a (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And I never once said that you were. But at the same time I note you don't deny it. You have adopted a stance similiar to that of many fundamentalist Christians, and have brought the Bible into this discussion. It seems to me that you don't (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No problem. I found it interesting in my research that many *Christians* don't have a clue where to find these scriptures. I had to resort to an 1700+ page index and a dictionary to find them. Most Christians readily say something to the (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Idunno - as I said, that's their problem to wrestle with (I am not a literalist). I'm tempted to say the problem is one of their own making, but I am hardly enough of a Bible scholar to actually say that with any certainty. I don't know of (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why? What part is falacious? I presume that you mean to say that God would create humans with equal desires towards sinning. Hence, if it were found that SOME people had MORE desire to sin based on their genetics, that it would prove that God (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Nah. I would say that we still have the ability to overcome the desire given to us by the gene. Just like I might have the urge to cheat on my wife. Genetic? Of course! I mean, that waitress is hot! Why do I think so? Instinct! But I still (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." This has what to do with homosexuality? (...) "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Clearly, "4,000 yrs. of religious doctrine" must include more than just the Bible. The Bible, as we know it today, was not available 4,000 years ago. Take an example. According to Jewish belief, Jesus is not the son of God. According to (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I was only speaking from a hypothetical standpoint and not voicing my own opinion. My viewpoint is the same as yours, but from the Catholic standpoint, you just commited a sin (the thought is the same as the action), so what does that imply? (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The Bible simply IS part of the discussion. Christians and homosexuals alike have argued it to such a degree that it is difficult have a discussion of only homosexuality. For what it's worth, when I began debating gay-by-birth elsewhere, a (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Essentially, it implies that similarly being homosexual is the same as being heterosexual :) IE if I sinned by thinking that the waitress is hot, I sin equally by thinking that a waiter is hot. Again, as long as I know not to act on my (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No, it does doesn't. Pattern does usually follow process though. It would have to be the default(1). The only ones who matter(2) in evolution are the ones who reproduce, so therefore how can it be that we should incapable of reproduction? (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But genes that inhibit reproduction _can_ be inherited, recessively. Cf cystic fibrosis (without treatment sufferers die before puberty). (...) Try a little google search for "homosexual bonobo". My thoughts, such as they are: I think the "why (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) True. That would not fit the requirements of a default setting for the gay-gene though. (...) I do know of the cases. I'm looking for a different pattern, not sure how to fit it into words. (...) Did humans evolve in an environment that would (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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in article Gnty9D.Fty@lugnet.com, David Eaton at deaton@intdata.com wrote on 12/4/01 11:36 AM: (...) Which is what Catholicism DOES in fact say. Rob (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not sure I follow you -- why couldn't a gay-gene be maintained in a heterozygote sub-population, like many other recessive traits? (...) Well give it a go!! But given the lack of extant ancestor species, apes seem like the best bet for (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not sure where to go with this part of the debate without actually veering into a no-holds-barred religious debate. The idea of sin is based on faith, that immorality is a wrong against a god. As such, sin could never be proven or (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Dang, I can't believe I did that, it's supposed to be Leviticus 20:13, I must've looked ahead on my list (It seemed appropriate to make a list). (...) I'm not sure this is really an issue, just an additional verse that shows God's view of how (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The part that says sin can be overcome and must be repented of for acceptance into the kingdom, unfortunately some in the gay community want Christianity, but not the rules. (...) Having a genetic behavior suggests that the behavior cannot be (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(don't mind me, I'm just a teenager who doesn't really know alot) I've been reading through this whole debate with interest, I know a girl who is gay and she says she knew ever since puberty (However she still hasn't told her parents [which makes me (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Matthew 5:21- here Jesus speaks about "thought sins", whereby a person dwells upon a sin, knowing it's nature, with the intent of "pretending" to to act it out. Specifically the example of adultery, whereby even looking upon a woman lustfully (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, simply acknowledging that something is beauiful would not be a sin, however, thinking, "...wow, what a bod, I just gotta have it..." is just as bad as actually "getting it". (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Low writes: [snip] (...) Asked and answered ;-) (...) 'Cause then we'd be giving birth in winter, which wouldn't be real wise :-) Cheers Richie (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I am finding that making so many individual replies is somewhat taxing. I seem to be saying too much in some posts, and not enough in others. Here, I should have distinctly referred to Christianity, rather than religion in general. Other religions (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That'd be great, except that the demands are not that simple. I really wish I new where to look for the lawsuits, I've heard about them on the news and from Christians, but I've never been able to read about them. (...) It is no longer that (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ok so far I guess-- although we're assuming some stuff about sin and morality, but there's a chance we won't need to get into it very far... (...) Ah. So your thought is that someone who is genetically predisposed to be gay is someone who (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well two things-- 1st off, this gets into sketchy territory. What is want? How do we define it? And, further, is it really *as* bad as the act? Hence, if we want it, why not just go do it since it's just as bad? Is there any positive side to (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) According to Christianity, every child (with or without the "gay gene"), is born into sin. Is that not a bit more powerful than the "genetic behavior" above? If indeed some very few percent are born into a genetic disposition towards a sinful (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Amen, well spoken! /Tore (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't see how this relates to my post. You said that all of 4000 years of religious doctrine was correct (except possibly the gay genes). I argued that with the diversity of the various doctrines, it couldn't _all_ be correct. Fredrik (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Sex (was: gay by birth vs. gay by choice)
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(...) Not all of us should be incapable of reproduction. Obviously that would be bad. However, the ability to generate, attract, and/or use the assistance of those (whomever/however) who don't reproduce would be a valuable survival strategy. If (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Even if it's just hearsay, can you tell me what you fear they might be? I hear things like the right to marry which is a pursuit of equality, not a special benefit. (...) I wouldn't fear such a lawsuit. I think it would be hard to penalize (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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