 | | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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"TWS Garrison" <tgarriso@math.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:GAKFqz.58w@lugnet.com... (...) position (...) caves (...) Inklings. (...) Ouroboros_ by (...) fantasy--notice (...) spelling (...) of (...) post-nuclear-apocalyptic (...) As opposed to (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Harry Potter?
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I haven't read any of these cultishly popular books, so I'm in no position to judge or make other comment, but what do Potter fans make of this: (URL) extremely odd coincidence, at any rate! Dave! (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) I wouldn't call #1 best-sellers as cultish - fadish, perhaps. The web site of the author of Larry Potter is extremely self-serving to say the least (www.realmuggles.com), but she may have a trademark (not copyright) case. The lawyers will have (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) I barely remember seeing this title once or twice. To what, more precisely, are you alluding to, Bruce? Just curious... -- Hop-Frog (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) My money is on Larry Potter staring Timmy. (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) I didn't mean it as insultingly as it probably came across. Think of it merely as an outsider's perception of an endlessly popular phenomenon. It's not a cult, obviously; I mean, it's not Pokemon, for pity's sake! 8^) (...) I know that none of (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) Richard writes: (...) Ah, I see -- the Lord of the Rings, right? Since I haven't read either series I would be interested in the kinds of similarities that appear to exist in both works. Just for extra fun, in what ways does the Lord of the (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) The author NK Stouffer's website - www.realmuggles.com - has a list of infringement examples which includes such uncanny shared attributes as... mythical place - perhaps those old Greek guys should sue too? muggle families - what, they (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) O' Mighty Tolkien! Who can stand in thy counsels? Sword of Shanara? I don't recall that referenc in the Great Books, but I could be wrong. (...) Entirely culturally revelvant. (...) Creativity is one thing...Harry vs. Larry Potter is quite (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) well lotr doesn't have that much to do with euro mythology in my eyes, it has dwarves and goblins, and giant animals but thats it mainly oh and dragons, to me it is just a fun story and i hope for the movie to be great! (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) ***snip of characteristics entirely generic to the fantasy genre*** Yeah, those are some far-fetched claims, to be sure. But at issue, according to the ABC article, is the undeniably similar proper names in the two series rather than broad "I (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter (um, very loosely)
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For those of you too busy with little bits of plastic to read books, check out this url: (URL) Return of The King is a particular favourite. (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) JK Rowling is the highest-earning woman in the UK, with projected earnings of something *mad* like £170m (US$250m-ish) over the next three years from films, toy licencing, some weird fizzy pop tie-in and, um, oh yes - 'book sales'. She can (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) Maybe US$10m, but if her whole empire is based on a stolen premise (again, I'm not saying that it is), her whole empire belongs to the person she stole it from, even if she doesn't "remember" stealing it! Dave! (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) I'd say the genre predates Tolkien and co. (see, e.g., _The Worm Ouroboros_ by E.R. Eddison). Tolkien is the archetype for much later s&s fantasy--notice blatent use of orcs (you can barely argue a medieval precedent), his spelling of dwarfs, (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) What about Thundarrrrrr the Barbarian and his Fabulous Sun Sword? Dave! (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I rather enjoyed the Harry Potter books, but then I'm a Tolkien cultist. :-) (...) Trademark infringement would most likely get her a piece of the action. (...) Borrowing or being inspired by, and out-and-out character-for-character and (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) I wasn't saying that JR invented the genre, rather that he defined it for the vast majority of authors. Middle Earth *is* the template and yardstick for pretty much everything. I don't know the origin of 'orc' - tell me! - but I wouldn't have (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) Terry Brooks' The Sword of Shanara (or the Sword of Sha-na-na, for those of us who like to sneer at it), illustrated by the Brothers Hildebrandt (at the height of their Tolkien-illustrating fame). It is a character-for-character, (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) I've only read a little of his stuff (at a friend's urging), and after ninety years of reading I was still in the first chapter. Not, for me, the most engaging prose style. Regretably (or not), I can't really assess his plagiarism, but I (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) Robert Asprin before Pratchett, and De Camp/Pratt (oooooo, Pratchett, what a rip-off) before Asprin. (...) Yes, but Dick doesn't relate to Castles. :-) Bruce (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) Au, contraire! "Man in the High Castle" won him the Hugo in the early 60's (though admittedly it was a different kind of castle...) Dave! (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) Lord Dunsany would be another, Fritz Leiber, Robert E. Howard, though none in quite the same style. (...) Lin Carter (terrible author, but great editor whom revived such authors as Eddison and Dunsany) very specifically reviled The Sword of (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) Middle-earth, hyphenated, small e. Tolkien had a number of idiosynchratic spellings, such as dwarves. Orc is derived from Ogre, which is why you see fantasy games can get away with refering to orcs, but never Hobbits. Bruce (who got away with (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) I thought the word "orc" is derived from the workers around an orc-pile, i.e. a pile of dead bodies, as referred to in Beowulf. Cheers, - jsproat (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) I couldn't finish it either. I threw it against the wall. It had such a marketing hype from Ballantine along with the Hildebrandt illustrations, I felt betrayed that either would have anything to do with it. (...) I am a leper. I feel sorry (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) I think that I've agreed with you about Prydain here in the past, but I just can't let an opportunity pass unanswered. Alexander's Prydain books are just about the best fantasy fiction that I've ever read. I read it all as a kid and I happen (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) That would seem logical, especially since Tolkien was a Beowulf scholar, but the attributions I have read specifically say it derives from ogre (or was it ogre actually derives from orc - dang, I don't remember). Bruce (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) One thing in Donaldson's favor is that he isn't afraid to make his protagonists wholly unlikeable characters, as opposed to nice guys who do things as nice guys and end up as nice guys when the story is over. It's the age-old redemption-story, (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) Oh alright. I agree: written for "young people" or not, the Prydain books are amongst the elite of fantasy fiction. Certainly the best written, for me. I read them as an adult, simultaneously with Eddison's first series. I broke with a long (...) (23 years ago, 21-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) FWIW, the American Heritage Dictionary says the root for ogre is from the Latin orcus, god of the underworld...huh. Now I gotta dig up the resource where I got my idea, I vaguely remember this being mentioned. Cheers, - jsproat (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) There's an even worse "copy" of Lord of the Rings - The Iron Tower trilogy by Dennis L. McKiernan. It was explained to me once that this resulted from McKiernan having written a sequel to Lord of the Rings, and having it rejected as such, but (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) I enjoyed Feist, even knowing it was derived from an RPG supplement. I enjoyed Daughter of the Empire and it's sequels more though. I wonder how many people who read Feist's books ever saw the RPG supplements though? Frank (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) I've had the pleasure of reading most of Dennis L. Mckiernan's entire line of books. And I find his writing to be dynamic, enthralling and among the best in the genre! He sites J.R.R. Tolken; among others, in his foreword as being "fine (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) I haven't read De Camp or Pratt, but I've read half a dozen books by Aspirin, and I'm not sure a meaningful lineage can be cited. One might also bring up the egotist (excuse me, of course I mean "writer") Piers Anthony as an equal source of (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) You know, this claim has been made a thousand times... Why? Does it sell books? Can it ever be trusted? Why is this the first time I've ever heard of this author? What does it mean to surpass Tolkien in 'intensity'? Tolkien is not an author (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) "Sword of Sha na na?" BWAAAAAA! :) Lord Bowser, your mighty steed awaits! (...) I'll put on the "historian cap" here: most Mediaevalists hate it, but Norman Cantor's polemic _Inventing the Middle Ages_ has a rather ...interesting... chapter on (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) There were very serious talks about his work becoming an official extension of Tolkien's work (anything is better than Christopher Tolkien out-Bilboing his father with meandering editing). So, yes, McKiernan's work was originally intended as a (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) Yup, that seems to ring a bell. Anyway, the word "Orc" couldn't really be protected under trademark laws (at least in this country). Bruce (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Plagarism in Fantasy Novels? (was Re: Harry Potter?)
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(...) Tolkien pretty much did his thing for self-satisfaction rather than packaging something to be "sold" to a popular audience. In any case, Tolkien was interested more in mythology than actual history. I saw Inventing the Middle Ages on a (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) But the Iron Tower trilogy which was written to give the base series for the later books to rest on had incredible correlation with Lord of the Rings. It seemed like every major scene had a parallel in Lord of the Rings. FUT: (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) A great deal of the alternate reality in LOTR/Tolkien books is based upon his understanding of Norse Mythology. He admitted publicly long ago that it was a prime influence for him, his initial interest was in drawing out mythical maps (from (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) Brooks had scene-for-scene, character-for-character matches (in the same sequence as LOTR) - geez, a fellowship with four little guys, one dwarf, one elf, two men, and a wizard, for heaven's sake. He just added new names, and that was about (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Harry Potter?
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(...) I just don't remember it being so bluntly obvious as the Iron Tower trilogy was. Perhaps there was some difference in frame of mind when I read them (but note that I did read the Iron Tower trilogy much later than I did Sword of Shanara, and (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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I remember seeing a news story where a japanese company was suing Disney for plagiarism over "The Lion King." Their character was named Kimba while the Disney version was named Simba. The stories were virtually the same. However, I'll bet Disney's (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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(...) There is a difference between these two occurences. The Harry Potter lawsuit is over the fact that both books use the term "muggles" though to mean different things. Also there is a character in suer's book named Larry Potter but he in no (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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(...) So, in other words, they both ripped off Hamlet. eric (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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(...) I rather take it that Anime company failed. Simba is simply Swahili for "lion". And if they mean Kimba the White Lion, the stories weren't similiar at all, beyond being animated lions. Anytime something makes a lot of money, people come out of (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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(...) Not sure about this--here's a snippet culled from the ABC News site (excerpted here for purposes of review and discussion and intending no challenge to the copyright status of that fine site!) "Both books have characters known as Muggles. They (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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In lugnet.castle, Dave Schuler writes: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) Funny you mention this, i remember seeing a story on a news show (dateline?)that there was a resturant named McDonalds, I think in Scotland, that is a very fancy, high class place. And (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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(...) But might not the name similarity be sufficient? "Skywalker Records" was forcibly renamed after George Lucas' legal action. If I write a fantasy novel about a guy named Biblo Gabbins, wouldn't Tolkien's estate at the very least send me a (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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(...) There was a long discussion on this in various Harry Potter web locations. Yahoo Groups is where I saw it. Anyway, they came up with multiple uses of the word Muggle going back at least 50 years. Jason (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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(...) That's wild. I guess my question is whether there's an established context of use for the word, or if it's just out there in the world. I mean, I'm sure someone in history, while wielding his non-cumbersome sword, might have commented "Gee, (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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(...) As noted above, "perhaps she has a case, perhaps she doesn't." I'm just not going to condemn Rowling based on what Stouffer had to say. Plagiarism, which is what Stouffer is implying to get public sympathy and promote herself, and trademark (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What's in a name? ( Potter, Plagiarism, and Trademark)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes: If the word exists, that's one thing, but (...) Yes, Lego would have a case because it would create confusion in the public's mind. Less clear cut would be a recording company and a computer (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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(...) Same here. I'm really just intrigued by the whole thing, since it's a nifty string of coincidences even if no plagiarism is involved. No slur intended toward either author, of course! (...) Yeah, that assertion is pretty hard to refute! 8^) (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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(...) Actually, the story I heard was that as Fast food McDonald's moved into England and Scotland, the found a small restaurant near one of the desired sites named McDonalds. It wasn't too large or high class (I'll get to that later) but I also (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What's in a name? ( Potter, Plagiarism, and Trademark)
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(...) Or, for example, a boy wizard and a boy wizard? 8^) Dave! (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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(...) The Big M has had fast food franchising (burgers) to themselves in Australia. So the Big Mac is the Big Mac. Only recently have Burger King started expansion. But I believe someone local had rights to the franchise name 'Burger King'. When (...) (23 years ago, 22-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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(...) Kimba the White Lion (Jungle Taitei) was created by the undisputed "God of Manga," Osamu Tezuka. He single-handedly changed the course of the Manga industry when he released a comic book in 1947 that was novel length and had the first (...) (23 years ago, 23-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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I (...) Thanks for correcting me. I am sorely lacking in knowledge of early manga and anime but felt moved to try and clarify the argument. I have seen quotes where disney animators professed awe for Tezuka's work so its a shame that the disney (...) (23 years ago, 23-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Disney actually did this with "Lion King"
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"David Simmons" <xenobuzz@onemain.com> wrote in message news:GAM4AE.6qJ@lugnet.com... (...) for (...) the (...) first (...) position (...) [...] I don't claim to know very much about anything, but didn't Disney buy the Lion King property from (...) (23 years ago, 29-Mar-01, to lugnet.castle)
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