| |
I'm not usually an alarmist but I did notice the new U.S. sale prices on
selected 9V items, including the Train Motor, Speed Regulator, Level Crossing,
and Train Engine Shed (in new bley which was somewhat good news, as we hope this
set will be continued with the RC's) along with Locomotives and Rail Cars.
Here's the link to U.S. S&H sales:http://shop.lego.com/leaf.asp?Type=11
Lowering the price on the Hopper Waggon, Caboose, and Passenger Wagon makes
sense, but lowering the price on the Train Motor tells me the 9V Straight Track
is next. I won't be buying the RC track because of the unfriendly consumer
Corporate decision to package 8 straight tracks with 8 curves. Do they think we
are going to purchase a dozen boxes of half straight and half curves to build a
nice display when we need straight in a 4 or 5 to 1 ratio? This was a slap in
the face to LUG's. Our LUG already has hundreds, perhaps thousands of 9v curves
in storage. Wait a minute, I'm not bitter. I'm just concerned that the decision
makers are more concerned about short term profits than long term viability.
Is this the death mill of 9V? Is S&H not going to support 9V after all? RichLug
just purchased 20 boxes of straight track, partially because we are worried 9V
will no longer be supported when RC comes out. Should we grab a dozen motors at
the "discontinued" price? I wish our LUG could get an honest answer from LEGO
about their support of 9V. Is this too much to ask? Our show this weekend may
have been the best LEGO PR in our metropolitan area this year and it didn't cost
LEGO a penny. We want LEGO sales to go up when we display. I'm not bitter, just
worried that my collection will become even more valuable because it's no longer
supported. I'm not in this for the investment.
I noticed the train sales the other day and waited to see if anyone would
comment. So...What's up? I don't want to purchase my next motor on Bricklink at
inflated prices.
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Bert Waters wrote:
| |
I’m not usually an alarmist but I did notice the new U.S. sale prices on
selected 9V items..
|
Bert-
This certainly doesn’t look good. I couldn’t see anything good when Jake
announced at BrickFest the introdution of the new “play train” system and the
reclassification of the 9V train as the “hobby train”. So far, there has not
been a single new 9V train item and the entire 9 volt electric system seems to
be disappearing. Hence:
- No electric plates in years
- No Technic sets using 9V anything
- No new 9V train items
- A new Mindstorms that doesn’t use the existing 9V wire/battery/motor/ight system
- All the train items on lego.com listed as not available or back ordered
And now Jake, of course, is no longer with TLC and I’ve heard nothing from
anyone else at TLC since to reassure us that we will be able to continue to buy
9V motors, track, wires, etc. Several items are vital just to maintain existing
users: motors and track. More items are required to bring in new club members
and more users in general: engines, cars, (hence wheels, bases, and couplers),
voltage regulators and wires. It’s not like it’s a huge list.
Like others have said, it would be crazy for LTCs to become operators of legacy
systms telling all our excited visitors at shows that they cannot get this
stutff except on eBay and BrickLink. (And since LEGO train motors all die sooner
or later, motors are the absolute limiting factor.)
In my dreams, I would like to imagine that TLC has the motors on sale because
they have a new one ready for release. One that’s more powerful, realiable, and
more easily modified for DCC. That would justify a clearance sale!
-Ted
SCLTC
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In lugnet.trains, Ted Michon wrote:
| |
Bert-
This certainly doesn’t look good.
|
Thanks Ted. I was going to request to cancel this post before anyone responded
because of the rambling and negative tone. Plus...it is not very well written. I
don’t post very often in lugnet.trains but follow it regularly. I’ve been buying
9V trains since 1994 when my son was 8 years old. To see them discontinued
rather than even relegated to hobby train status is disheartening. I bought
monorail after it was discontinued and another member of our LUG is now buying
12V trains. I will continue to follow the saga and I can’t wait to see the first
RC train retro-fitted with a 9V motor.
Bert
RichLUG
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|
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Ted Michon wrote:
> And now Jake, of course, is no longer with TLC and I've heard nothing
> from anyone else at TLC since to reassure us that we will be able to
> continue to buy 9V motors, track, wires, etc. Several items are vital
> just to maintain existing users: motors and track. More items are
> required to bring in new club members and more users in general:
> engines, cars, (hence wheels, bases, and couplers), voltage
> regulators and wires. It's not like it's a huge list.
>
> Like others have said, it would be crazy for LTCs to become operators
> of legacy systms telling all our excited visitors at shows that they
> cannot get this stutff except on eBay and BrickLink. (And since LEGO
> train motors all die sooner or later, motors are the absolute
> limiting factor.)
>
> In my dreams, I would like to imagine that TLC has the motors on sale
> because they have a new one ready for release. One that's more
> powerful, realiable, and more easily modified for DCC. That would
> justify a clearance sale!
The more and more I think about the whole LEGO train deal, the more I think
that we've set ourselves up for these let downs. Almost no other model
railroad sub-hobby limits itself to a single companies products. The
exceptions I am aware of are Lionel and American Flyer enthusiasts, with the
American Flyer folks collecting and operating trains that have been out of
production for many many years, and the same for the tinplate Lionel
enthusiasts. Of course there are 3rd party vendors who have offered products
to these folks, and those who are not quite purists have adopted these new
products. Many of the enthusiasts probably gain significant satisfaction
from the fact that they are collecting and operating out of production
collectors items.
If we are going to insist on purism, we are going to have to recognize that
we are in a sub-hobby doomed (or blessed depending on your interests) with
the eventuality of the products we use being out of production. To the
extent that we have fun building and operating layouts with what we have in
our collections (or can find on eBay), we have a sustainable hobby. To the
extent that we can excite folks to search eBay or their own attics, we have
a viable hobby. On the other hand, if our goal is to get people excited
about LEGO's current products, then we have to embrace whatever products
they come out with.
Now we can certainly complain about those new products. And we can try and
educate LEGO about how unsuitable those products are for our hobby. But LEGO
is first a business, and second a toy producer. They will produce products
they believe make business sense, and cater to their primary market of
children. To the extent that those toys are fun for us to play with also,
cool. But when we demand LEGO cater to our (nearly insignificant) hobby
needs, I don't think we have much of a leg to stand on.
One thought on our buying power: Almost no LEGO toys have had stores setting
"one to a customer" limits the way action figures, Hot Wheels, and other
collectable toys have done. I would think that if we really were a
significant percentage of the market, we would be seeing such limits.
Instead of course, we almost never see LEGO trains in the big box stores (in
fact, one might note that model trains and the almost model toy trains, have
been disappearing from the big box stores).
So my thought is that either we have to accept that we are destined to
become a niche collector hobby, or we have to convince 3rd party
manufacturers that LEGO compatible L-Guage trains are a viable product. If
we did that, I'm sure that we would see new track geomety very quickly. We
would probably also see an improved, DCC ready, train motor, US style wheel
sets, better couplers (Kaydee, or something more economical but with better
characteristics than the LEGO magnets), and more. The other option is some
manufacturer makes a few pieces that make it easier to build O guage and/or
G guage LEGO trains (or we do that ourselves).
Frank
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In lugnet.trains, Bert Waters wrote:
> I'm not usually an alarmist but I did notice the new U.S. sale prices on
> selected 9V items, including the Train Motor, Speed Regulator, Level Crossing,
> and Train Engine Shed (in new bley which was somewhat good news, as we hope this
> set will be continued with the RC's) along with Locomotives and Rail Cars.
Not showing up on the sales and deals page are the MOT locomotives which appear
to be on sale now as well.
As far as the essentials, I'd get what you think you'll need in the forseeable
future, while you can, now.
Definitely a drag.
Jonathan
|
|
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In lugnet.trains, Jonathan Lopes wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Bert Waters wrote:
> > I'm not usually an alarmist but I did notice the new U.S. sale prices on
> > selected 9V items, including the Train Motor, Speed Regulator, Level Crossing,
> > and Train Engine Shed (in new bley which was somewhat good news, as we hope this
> > set will be continued with the RC's) along with Locomotives and Rail Cars.
>
>
>
> Not showing up on the sales and deals page are the MOT locomotives which appear
> to be on sale now as well.
>
> As far as the essentials, I'd get what you think you'll need in the forseeable
> future, while you can, now.
>
> Definitely a drag.
>
> Jonathan
Further, it appears (whats left of the) the Santa Fe cars and the TTX Double
Stack car are on sale in Europe.
Signs of things to come in the USA? Are these the last of what is considered a 'hobby' set aside from the BNSF Loco?
|
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In lugnet.trains, Frank Filz wrote:
| |
The more and more I think about the whole LEGO train deal, the more I think
that we’ve set ourselves up for these let downs. Almost no other model
railroad sub-hobby limits itself to a single companies products. The
exceptions I am aware of are Lionel and American Flyer enthusiasts, with the
American Flyer folks collecting and operating trains that have been out of
production for many many years, and the same for the tinplate Lionel
enthusiasts.
..
|
Frank-
I see two signficant differences between LEGO train enthusiasts and fans of
defunct products from defunct companies:
1. TLC is not defunct and although it’s had problems, we all expect it to
recover and thrive.
2. While many (most?) of us LTC types like/love trains, trains are only the
“glue” that make large layouts that consist of 99.9% non-train specific parts
possible. The trains are essential, but they are a very small part of the $$ we
spend on LEGO product and a very small percentage of the $$ that people who are
inspired by seeing LTC layouts spend. Because we are an “LTC”, we get
invitations to model railroad venues, but when we attend these things what we
are really showing the world is LEGO everything, not just LEGO trains.
Similarly, when we get invited to non-train venues, it’s almost always because
the venue knows us as a creator of LEGO cities and towns that happen to have
these fun and animated things called trains running through them.
LTCs are MUCH more than model railroading - they are really more about LEGO
modelling in general. But LTC is a format that for the past 5 years or so has
become easy to explain to the world. Bottom line, if there were no trains we
would almost need to start over to get the world to want us and understand us
the way they do now.
-Ted
|
|
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In lugnet.trains, Ted Michon wrote:
| |
- No electric plates in years
|
These are apparently
still available from customer support in Europe.
| |
- No Technic sets using 9V anything
|
The 8421 crane definitely uses the new
9V motor, and a new (apparently studless) battery box has appeared in some
photos of the recently announced Technic sets, so I think 9V is still very much
alive and well in Technic. Also 9V items are still available from LEGO
Educational outlets.
:(
| |
- A new Mindstorms that doesn’t use the existing 9V wire/battery/motor/ight system
|
Doesn’t *include* existing 9V system. Again,
LEGO has announced a converter available from LEGO Educational that will allow
old 9V motors and sensors to be used with NXT.
| |
- All the train items on lego.com listed as not available or back ordered
|
Or discounted.
So while I agree things are looking bad for 9V trains, I think your conclusions
about 9V Technic (and other 9V generally) are a little off the mark.
ROSCO
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|
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In lugnet.trains, Ted Michon wrote:
| |
LTCs are MUCH more than model railroading - they are really more about LEGO
modelling in general. But LTC is a format that for the past 5 years or so has
become easy to explain to the world. Bottom line, if there were no trains we
would almost need to start over to get the world to want us and understand us
the way they do now.
|
Well, this is an interesting question that is distilled into the LTC vs LUG
debate. I think that there are distinctions between the two. The TCLTC’s
motto is that our layout is simply a background for our trains. Without the
trains, the whole thing wouldn’t make much sense like say, a miniland does,
which I definitely agree has merits of its own.
JOHN
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That may all be true (but I would point out that last I heard, Lionel is
alive and well, yet there are folks who only do vintage tinplate Lionel),
but my main point is that by chosing to be 100% pure to a single
manufacturer, we are totally at the whim of their marketting folks as to
whether product lines we depend on will continue to exist.
Now it's worth pointing out that if the LEGO company completely evaportated
tomorrow, we would still be able to put on impressive displays and get
invited to train shows. Unless for some reason they REALLY are only inviting
us because we drive sales of LEGO. But somehow I doubt it, and surely the
American Flyer hobbiests aren't similarly driving anything other than a
collector's market. Well ok, perhaps there might be an issue in that at most
train shows, you'll find someone selling vintage American Flyer, not so for
vintage LEGO.
I think we also have to ask ourselves why are we doing this? Personally I do
it because LEGO is a cool medium to work in, and the other AFOLs are cool
people to work with (either locally at train shows with GPLR, or nationally
with the brick cons). But I'm also starting to get more of an interest in
finding ways to do shows other than train shows. For one, we've been treated
rather shabbily by them. For another, there's a lot more to the LEGO hobby
than just trains and the towns that they run in.
And 90% of my enjoyment of the LEGO building hobby is completely independant
of LEGO producing any new sets. And personally, I have plenty of train
parts, so if they never made another train, I'd probably still get 95-99% of
the enjoyment. Now I do happen to have a directly tied in hobby of buying
cool new LEGO sets, but that interest is really totally independant of LEGO
trains. So my feeling is that if trains go away, oh well. I'll still build
and show. If LEGO stops making sets, well, that will be a big bummer, but
I'll still build and show (and probably actually do more building since I
won't be spending most of my LEGO time buying and sorting sets).
Now if my hobby was more strongly model railroading, and I wanted to stick
with LEGO, I'd consider getting serious about looking for 3rd party
solutions for track etc. And I'd love to have LEGO compatible track that I
could use outside. On the other hand, I love the G-scale stuff I've
purchased in the last year or so, and there's no way LEGO holds a candle to
it for detail and cool massiveness (of course G-scale has nothing on the
7.5" guage live steam I've seen in those same areas).
Frank
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In lugnet.trains, Ross Crawford wrote:
| |
In lugnet.trains, Ted Michon wrote:
| |
- No electric plates in years
|
These are apparently
still available from customer support in Europe.
|
Ross-
Gee, I’ve despaired of getting any 9V electric plates for a long time. Last I
look there were some in Spain or Hungary, but that was about it. I wonder how
someone in the US places an order in France?
| |
| |
- No Technic sets using 9V anything
|
The 8421 crane definitely uses the
new 9V motor, and a new (apparently studless) battery box has appeared in
some photos of the recently announced Technic sets, so I think 9V is still
very much alive and well in Technic. Also 9V items are still available from
LEGO Educational outlets.
|
Ross-
OK, so “almost no”. Certainly not in any post-Christmas Target sales that feed
the BrickLink beast!
| |
:(
| |
- A new Mindstorms that doesn’t use the existing 9V wire/battery/motor/ight system
|
Doesn’t *include* existing 9V system. Again,
LEGO has announced a converter available from LEGO Educational that will
allow old 9V motors and sensors to be used with NXT.
|
Ross-
That will make institutions that have bought a bazillion old motors happy.
| |
| |
- All the train items on lego.com listed as not available or back ordered
|
Or discounted.
So while I agree things are looking bad for 9V trains, I think your
conclusions about 9V Technic (and other 9V generally) are a little off the
mark.
|
Ross-
My best judge of how the mainstream is going is to see what’s available in new
condition on BrickLink. I find the fact that straight track is selling way over
the per piece in a box price and that no one is dumping curve track fairly
telling.
-Ted
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Bert Waters wrote:
> I'm not usually an alarmist but I did notice the new U.S. sale prices on
> selected 9V items, including the Train Motor, Speed Regulator, Level Crossing,
> and Train Engine Shed (in new bley which was somewhat good news, as we hope this
> set will be continued with the RC's) along with Locomotives and Rail Cars.
Ergh, didn't they set up some kind of Ambassadors or GlobalAFOLs or something
comprising people who are supposed to relay this kind of info back and forth
between TLG and the great unwashed masses?
I think if anyone knows who any of those "in the know" people are, they should
ask them to obtain clarification.
JB
|
|
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In lugnet.trains, Ted Michon wrote:
| |
In lugnet.trains, Ross Crawford wrote:
| |
In lugnet.trains, Ted Michon wrote:
| |
- No electric plates in years
|
These are apparently
still available from customer support in Europe.
|
Ross-
Gee, I’ve despaired of getting any 9V electric plates for a long time. Last I
look there were some in Spain or Hungary, but that was about it. I wonder how
someone in the US places an order in France?
|
AFAIK you can’t (this type of order can be placed “everywhere” in europe but is
not publicized by TLC and you have to know LEGO item numbers - the ones you can
see in the BOM at the end of some 2006 BIs) . Anyway, I’m afraid the Electric
2x4 plate is about to be unavailable also here - the girl from LEGO Direct told
me this morning they have only 50 of them. I have placed an order and will
receive (only) 20 - we are usualy limited to 10 :-(. I have yet promised John to
send him some...
Didier Enjary
|
|
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"Ted Michon" <ted@scltc.org> wrote in message news:IwtA9E.oJw@lugnet.com...
[ ... snipped ... ]
>
> Ross-
>
> Gee, I've despaired of getting any 9V electric plates for a long time.
> Last I
> look there were some in Spain or Hungary, but that was about it. I wonder
> how
> someone in the US places an order in France?
[ ... snipped ... ]
You have to find a "ship to" address in France. I ordered a bunch of stuff
from LEGO Sweden a fair number of years ago and had it shipped to our office
in Stockholm to one of my co-workers. It was pretty simple. I called LEGO
Sweden, gave them my CC and the ship to address. Two days later the items
were delivered to my co-worker. Now if you don't have a "ship to" address
in one of these countries, I agree, it is a bit more challenging.
Mike
--
Mike Walsh - mike_walsh at mindspring.com
http://www.ncltc.cc - North Carolina LEGO Train Club
http://www.carolinatrainbuilders.com - Carolina Train Builders
http://www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=mpw - CTB/Brick Depot
|
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The silence from LEGO since Jake's departure has been deafening. Jake's blog
used to be my first stop in my daily web news crawl.
But since the keynote at BrickFest
(http://www.bricksonthebrain.com/brickfest2005/) there has been very little
solid news about the IR train system and the LEGO Train Factory program.
There are some great pictures of the sets posted over at ILTCO
(http://www.iltco.org).
But the official LEGO position on the future of the 9V system is not at all
clear.
LEGO - please bring us up to speed.
Bryan
"John Barnes" <barnes@sensors.com> wrote in message
news:IwtH9J.1Fwq@lugnet.com...
> In lugnet.trains, Bert Waters wrote:
> > I'm not usually an alarmist but I did notice the new U.S. sale prices on
> > selected 9V items, including the Train Motor, Speed Regulator, Level
> > Crossing,
> > and Train Engine Shed (in new bley which was somewhat good news, as we
> > hope this
> > set will be continued with the RC's) along with Locomotives and Rail
> > Cars.
>
>
> Ergh, didn't they set up some kind of Ambassadors or GlobalAFOLs or
> something
> comprising people who are supposed to relay this kind of info back and
> forth
> between TLG and the great unwashed masses?
>
> I think if anyone knows who any of those "in the know" people are, they
> should
> ask them to obtain clarification.
>
> JB
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, John Barnes wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Bert Waters wrote:
> > I'm not usually an alarmist but I did notice the new U.S. sale prices on
> > selected 9V items, including the Train Motor, Speed Regulator, Level Crossing,
> > and Train Engine Shed (in new bley which was somewhat good news, as we hope this
> > set will be continued with the RC's) along with Locomotives and Rail Cars.
>
>
> Ergh, didn't they set up some kind of Ambassadors or GlobalAFOLs or something
> comprising people who are supposed to relay this kind of info back and forth
> between TLG and the great unwashed masses?
>
> I think if anyone knows who any of those "in the know" people are, they should
> ask them to obtain clarification.
Yes there are LEGO Ambassadors, I am one. We are under NDA so we are very
limited in what we can say without permission. If we recieve permission to
release information we do so immediately. I honestly can't say what the
official status of the 9V train line is because even we don't have all the
information.
The LEGO Ambassadors have made strides in breaking down some walls within LEGO
but others as still hard to penetrate. We are making progress and we and LEGO
know about the communities frustration over this issue. As desicions are made
which we are made aware of we will release that information as our NDA allows.
Trust for now that we are discussing this with LEGO and we are trying to get all
the information we can about the status of 9V trains.
-Eric Kingsley
LEGO Ambassador
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
> ..
> Trust for now that we are discussing this with LEGO and we are trying to get all the information we can about the status of 9V trains.
> -Eric Kingsley
> LEGO Ambassador
Eric-
Thanks. Glad to know you and the others are on top of this issue that means so
much to many of us. At SCLTC we have almost 5 years invested building our club
and have reached the point where venues come to us and we have as many events as
we can handle. If 9V trains disappeared, we would not be able to continue.
-Ted
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Ted Michon wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
> > ..
> > Trust for now that we are discussing this with LEGO and we are trying to get all the information we can about the status of 9V trains.
>
> > -Eric Kingsley
> > LEGO Ambassador
>
> Eric-
>
> Thanks. Glad to know you and the others are on top of this issue that means so
> much to many of us. At SCLTC we have almost 5 years invested building our club
> and have reached the point where venues come to us and we have as many events as
> we can handle. If 9V trains disappeared, we would not be able to continue.
>
> -Ted
Ted,
This is very important feedback. Lets try an informal poll...
If 9V trains do get discontinued...
1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
(List your club and number of appearances)
2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
powered IR Trains?
3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
It is important that folks take this seriously and post honestly. If you have
any other feedback in terms of how your club would be affected if 9V trains were
discontinued please share that as well.
The more information the Ambassadors have in terms of how a decision such as
this affects the community the more we can try to influance decisions within
LEGO before a point of no return is reached, such as happened with the color
problem.
I will take your feedback and put together a document that I will submit through
the channels I have open to me and we will see what happens.
-Eric Kingsley
LEGO Ambassador
|
|
| |
"Eric Kingsley" <kingsley@nelug.org> wrote in message
news:Iwuo0x.BMJ@lugnet.com...
[ ... snipped ... ]
>
> I will take your feedback and put together a document that I will submit
> through
> the channels I have open to me and we will see what happens.
>
> -Eric Kingsley
> LEGO Ambassador
Do you want this feedback via e-mail or posted to LUGNET?
Mike
--
Mike Walsh - mike_walsh at mindspring.com
http://www.ncltc.cc - North Carolina LEGO Train Club
http://www.carolinatrainbuilders.com - Carolina Train Builders
http://www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=mpw - CTB/Brick Depot
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Mike Walsh wrote:
>
> "Eric Kingsley" <kingsley@nelug.org> wrote in message
> news:Iwuo0x.BMJ@lugnet.com...
>
> [ ... snipped ... ]
>
> >
> > I will take your feedback and put together a document that I will submit
> > through
> > the channels I have open to me and we will see what happens.
> >
> > -Eric Kingsley
> > LEGO Ambassador
>
> Do you want this feedback via e-mail or posted to LUGNET?
>
> Mike
Lets post it on LUGNET for all to see. I will then collect it and put it
together in a single document for those at LEGO to go through.
Again honest answers without the vitriol is important. I won't include any
fire-brand comments in my document.
-Eric Kingsley
LEGO Ambassador
|
|
| |
Eric,
Is there anyway for you to also gather input from "club-less" LEGO train
enthusists? While I don't belong to a club or do exhibitions, I do have my
own home layout for both myself and my children. And I too have a big
investment in 9V gear.
I will likely purchase the new IR cargo train - for the green parts. But the
first thing I will do is fit it with a 9V motor. I've been waiting for an
expansion of the 9V system for years. Now the system changes... What a blow.
-- Bryan
"Eric Kingsley" <kingsley@nelug.org> wrote in message
news:Iwuo0x.BMJ@lugnet.com...
> This is very important feedback. Lets try an informal poll...
>
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
>
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public
> appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
>
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
>
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Bryan Kinkel wrote:
> Eric,
>
> Is there anyway for you to also gather input from "club-less" LEGO train
> enthusists? While I don't belong to a club or do exhibitions, I do have my
> own home layout for both myself and my children. And I too have a big
> investment in 9V gear.
>
> I will likely purchase the new IR cargo train - for the green parts. But the
> first thing I will do is fit it with a 9V motor. I've been waiting for an
> expansion of the 9V system for years. Now the system changes... What a blow.
Sure post anything that you feel would be helpful. The reason I wanted to focus
on clubs is that they are essentially providing free advertising for LEGO which
can be quantified and have a value attached. Any time you can say that LEGO
will loose XXX in free advertising if the line is discontinued it helps to make
a case for continuing the line.
That isn't to say that folks with personal layouts arn't effected. It is just
harder to quantify and then make a justification for not discontinuing the line
based on that.
Anyway please post anything you feel would be of value.
-Eric Kingsley
LEGO Ambassador
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|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
> This is very important feedback. Lets try an informal poll...
>
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
>
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
The GMLTC doesn't do too many appearances each year. But, almost all our
appearances are at 'train events' - model railroading shows and at the Jackson
Street Roundhouse in St. Paul. We consider ourselves model railroaders first,
and Lego builders second. If we don't have trains, we probably don't do events.
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
No way. Our 8-wide trains are too heavy for the battery powered trains, unless
Lego somehow pulls a rabbit out of a hat and makes them 10 times more powerful
than I expect they'll be.
Maybe one small loop of an IR train, just to show people what they look like. I
thought of maybe using them in our subway, but knowing my luck the trains will
have an automatic shut-off (like the Duplo trains have) and it would stop
somewhere in the tunnel where I couldn't get an IR signal to restart it.
Besides, we want our trains to run all day long, not have to hit a 'go' button
every few minutes.
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
9volt trains are the reason we HAVE a club. See #1 above.
> It is important that folks take this seriously and post honestly. If you have
> any other feedback in terms of how your club would be affected if 9V trains were
> discontinued please share that as well.
I want an official answer from Lego as to the future of the train line. At our
shows, we've been put into the position of being "the bad guys", explaining to
people that Lego is phasing out the current system (no pun intended) and
switching back to the plastic rails & battery power. *Every* person we've
talked to at the last two shows (that's probably close to 10,000 people!) think
that's a bad idea.
LTCs are some of Lego's best advertising, and we're some of their biggest
customers...
JohnG, GMLTC
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
| |
If 9V trains do get discontinued...
1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
(List your club and number of appearances)
|
SCLTC (Southern California LEGO Train Club does about 6 display events covering
100 show days that attract about 150,000 visitors per year. The trend is upward.
| |
2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
powered IR Trains?
|
We probably could not avoid having some members bring IR trains to our layouts,
but we would not become an IR only club. Electrified rails are essential.
| |
3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
|
Probably 100%, unless we morphed into some other organization.
| |
It is important that folks take this seriously and post honestly. If you have
any other feedback in terms of how your club would be affected if 9V trains
were discontinued please share that as well.
|
Several points:
- Train motors are essentially consumables for heavy duty display oriented organizations like ours. If we knew that effective today we would never have access to motors again, we would probably cease doing shows immediately because members would be motivated to protect their motors for future personal use. In our club, the members provide the motors for club layouts and it would be hard to get volunteers to sacrifice theirs to do shows.
- It’s been hard (crazy!) enough telling people for 5 years that “LEGO has been making trains for 30 years including the current system for the past 15 years”. It would be very hard to say “well they used to make these and you can find them on eBay if you look hard”. It would make more difficult to recruit new members.
- We always look forward to creating bigger and better. Killing 9V would kill that. We have many, many thousands of dollars invested in 9V motors and track.
- We’ve been told for years that we (LTCs) are extremely valuable to TLC for showing the public what they could do with the brick. We have been told repeatedly that this is good for TLC and in turn it will be good for us and eventually open the great floodgate of new stuff we’ve been asking/hoping for years: better geometry switches, alternative radii track, better motors, etc.
- TLC must consider the value of the grass roots movement that created all the LTCs over the last 5 years. The only thing that we all absolutely need to keep putting the joy of LEGO in front of millions of visitors each year is for TLC simply keep selling us the same product the company has been making for 15 years. At BrickFest, the new LEGO CEO made clear that he valued “the system” that LEGO is based on. For the LTCs, 9 volt trains is definitely a key part of the system.
-Ted
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
>
> This is very important feedback. Lets try an informal poll...
>
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
>
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
>
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
>
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
>
>
I am a Castle Builder who as only recently begun collecting trains, and even
more recently, building MOC trains, and both specifically for the purpose of
bringing them to TexLUG displays. Yes, they're for my enjoyment, too, but as a
Castle Builder I do not have a dedicated train layout, nor do I plan to build
one.
Seeing as 9v motors and track wear out, as any moving part does, I would
eventually stop displaying my trains, as what is the point of displaying a train
at a public event if you're not also going to run it (because kids and adults
alike ask you to run a train they haven't seen moving).
Currently TexLUG doesn't do too many truly public displays, but every one of
them has involved trains. Our big Technic builder, TJ Avery, regularly builds
huge technic bridges specifically for train track, to add to the display. At
the last meeting, Tim discovered a section of straight track missing a metal
rail. Losing 9v trains and the ability to replace broken/worn out parts would
severely hinder our blossoming efforts to put on public displays, and would cut
our layouts in half.
As far as the IR trains go, I know TexLUG has several members with a more liquid
income that could invest in those trains, and probably do very well with them.
However, they're ability to gather these trains and their track (albeit the old
metal rails are comaptible) would be slow and there would be a serious lag time
in the collection to display process.
But personally, I will not be buying the IR trains, for many reasons. First and
foremost, I've already invested more money than I had planned in my trains.
Being a Castle fan by trade, I will always focus on that, and trains will always
be secondary overall.
Secondly, I don't stick with 6 wide trains. The current train I'm working on is
an 8 wide, and while I've not seen the IR trains in person, I get the impression
that you cannot build an IR train motor/reciever into an 8 wide train without
serious interference with the signal pickup.
Third, I have doubts in the IR train system. Again, as I've said, I've not seen
the new trains in person, so I do not speak from experience. But the 9v system
is a linear system, and that is very important to me. I build big. I've always
built big. As a Castle fan, I've built castles that take up half my truck's
bed. As a train fan, I have built two trains, a 9 car long Santa Fe Super
Chief, and my current 8 wide MOC train. Both are very very heavy trains, which
require a lot of raw power. With the 9v system, if you need more pulling power,
you add a motor. Sure the power gets dilluted, but the motors give coordinated
power. If you need more speed, you add a regulator. While you lose
coordination, you can easily adjust it without seeing the train.
The IR system, and please correct me if I am mistaken, requires a motor to be
tethered to a battery, concealed somewhere within the train. How much power can
this batter put out? How long will it last? Can you attach two motors to one
battery? Or can you attach to motors to one IR controller? Is it a rechargable
battery, or do we have to invest stock in Duracell or Engerizer?
It seems to me that any train club using the IR system will be severely limited
in the size and dimensions of their trains, which severely limits creativity.
Certainly the 9v system is much more accommodating to motorizing a train, simply
by replacing a bogie with a motor.
Will TexLUG disband if 9v trains were discontinued? No, I don't think so.
Will TexLUG lower its number of truly public displays? Possibly, trains add
interest and tie everything together.
Will TexLUG use IR trains? Dunno. I certainly won't be bringing any to shows.
Will TexLUG survive? Of course. Just perhaps in the darker places, hidden from
the eyes of the world.
--Anthony
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
> This is very important feedback. Lets try an informal poll...
>
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
>
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
>
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
>
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
>
>
> It is important that folks take this seriously and post honestly. If you have
> any other feedback in terms of how your club would be affected if 9V trains were
> discontinued please share that as well.
>
> The more information the Ambassadors have in terms of how a decision such as
> this affects the community the more we can try to influance decisions within
> LEGO before a point of no return is reached, such as happened with the color
> problem.
>
> I will take your feedback and put together a document that I will submit through
> the channels I have open to me and we will see what happens.
>
> -Eric Kingsley
> LEGO Ambassador
Eric,
The poll is a great idea. I have posted below answers to your three items. I
have also added a few survey items that I humbly submit for you to include.
1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
(List your club and number of appearances)
I was formerly part of the WAMALTC Club and the NGLTC Club. Knowing the
individuals and the track these clubs posses I answer this question as a former
member. I do not see that we would need to cut back or limit our appearances in
the near future. Both clubs or members of each club posses large volumes of
track and therefore could continue to exist without acquiring new track.
Unfortunately, there is not an unlimited supply of train motors. Most of the
active, committed club members have at least one or two motors no longer
running. If I am wrong, please correct me. Without a source for more 9V motors,
I fear that the long term future of displaying is in jeopardy. I cannot say
whether this is 5 years from now or 20 years from now, but it is a certainty
that when all the motors have run their lifetime then displaying working trains
will be in doubt.
Disbanding is another issue. That could happen regardless of the status of 9V
motors or track as members leave a club for various reasons. I have moved to an
area with few fans and would like to display. I lack the track resources for
putting on a large display, but could do a decent reasonably sized display. As I
recruit new members in my area, where do they go for track and motors compatible
with what I have? Sure for now, they have the ability to make purchases but for
how long. If 9V is all gone in a year, then there will be limited creation of
new LTC's.
2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
powered IR Trains?
I cannot wait to get my hands on the new battery operated trains. I have kept my
old battery operated trains and these ought to work well with the new one. I can
also run the new trains on the old 9V track too! Yeah. So fo me, this is a way
to continue the hobby. I pray for new engines, new rolling stock, new buildings,
etc. I know I have the ability to make them all work with my 9V as well.
I also feel that the new battery and remotely operated trains will give me the
opportunity to allow visitors to control the train. I do not know how to do this
yet, but there ought to be a way to create a user station where a child or adult
can operate a train on a line. I should also be able to figure out how to use a
computer and radio control programs to automate control of the trains using a
computer program. I will probably need to earn an Electronic Engineering Degree,
but hey I am still young.
Back to recruiting new members, will I have to create a new LTC devoted only to
radio and battery operated control? Will my electrified 9V track be religated to
non-electric battery operated lines? Will LEGO show me how to build
closed-circuit lines using multiples of 8 straight and 8 curved segments?
Something that will fit on 40 inch by 40 inch tables?
3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
This is an interesting open-ended question. Are you asking if LEGO's decision to
through out the 9V train segment of production in favor of a new product line
going to be the final straw that alienates the AFOL from participating in the
public display of their hobby? If yes, then I can only say time will show. Are a
majority of individuals willing to continue on doing what their doing? Will they
stop buying LEGO Products but continue to display their LEGO My Own Creations?
Will they support the LEGO Company no matter what decision they make? Is an AFOL
able to put aside new purchases and just play with what they have?
For me the creativity and resourcefulness of the AFOL has never been a limiting
factor with the hobby. Sure some will be fed up and leave the hobby. They can
send their straight 9V track to me and I will pay a reasonable price. Some will
take it as a challenge and continue to find ways of integrating the new product.
Me? I am in it for the time I spend with other AFOL's. The public is great too,
but their cattle. They don't know what their looking at half the time or why
there are even there. They make assumptions based on what others have told them,
information that is erroneous, and they force their rose colored view of the
world on me, which I routinely ignore. If I was interested in what others felt
about me and my hobby, I wouldn't be in the hobby. I am hoping that one or two
children at every show will realize they do not have to give up the brick when
they get older, as my parents failed to communicate to me. But I digress. The
point is there a some that care, others that don't and some that are concerned.
I am on the fringe between I don''t care what LEGO Company does, I'll buy, and I
am a little concerned.
Some suggestions for additional survey items:
4. If LEGO actively sought and licensed a 9V derivative of track and train
motors through a thrid party, compatible with current 9V track and motors, would
you club purchase and support it?
5. Do you find the success of your club and its future growth tied to the
availability of 9V track and train motors and how?
6. If 9V track and train motors were no longer available, would you adapt to
radio controlled battery operated train motors and the track they operated on?
7. Describe your LEGO hobby as it means to you.
My answers to my own proposed questions would be:
4. YES
5. Yes and No. Recruiting new members and establishing new clubs could be
compromised by incompatible track and train motors. Expanding an existing club
and expanding their track resources is certainly compromised and therefore
limiting their potential for growing their display.
6. YES, although I would hope LEGO Company would help me with battery costs by
making available batteries for public displays or providing low cost battery
solutions when I am in public supporting their product.
7. I am a loyal LEGO Fan collecting on multiple fronts. I will purchase nearly
anything and everything as a grow in this hobby and continue to expand my
involvement.
Respectfully,
Todd
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In lugnet.trains, Todd Thuma wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
Oh, and I was misled. I thought the trains were radio controlled. Apprently,
they are Infra-RED controlled. I mistakenly put radio in my post. I revise my
statement in the EE Degree. I will now need a Masters Degree in Electrical
Engineering to make my computer control the IR on the train.
Has anyone inquired why IR was used and not radio? Something I read in a robot
magazine said IR was more expensive than radio control.
Sorry, for the mistake.
Todd
|
|
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
[...]
>
> This is very important feedback. Lets try an informal poll...
>
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
>
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
>
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
>
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
>
>
> It is important that folks take this seriously and post honestly. If you have
> any other feedback in terms of how your club would be affected if 9V trains were
> discontinued please share that as well.
>
> The more information the Ambassadors have in terms of how a decision such as
> this affects the community the more we can try to influance decisions within
> LEGO before a point of no return is reached, such as happened with the color
> problem.
>
> I will take your feedback and put together a document that I will submit through
> the channels I have open to me and we will see what happens.
>
> -Eric Kingsley
> LEGO Ambassador
Hello Eric,
As a member of FreeLUG (ILTCO affiliated) and a 9V train fan here are some
answers to your questions.
1 In 2005 we had about 4 public appearances with train layouts. Personnally I
manage completely one of them happening in Orléans (France), which have seen
about 10400 visitors last time and dealing exclusively with train modelling. For
that event, the 9V train motors are provided by myself (with my personal money)
and we use about 10 motors over two days, 8 hours/day. Each time we are invited
by the organisation committee because of the public impact our Lego diorama has,
especially when compared with more classical train modelling. To tell the truth,
they say they want us, because we bring more people to the show. I don't like to
put me in front, but this is a simple fact.
2 We do not consider yet to use IR trains for events mainly because we have big
layouts in big halls where IR transmission is not efficient. Moreover, the
number of simultaneous trains in circulation prohibits the use of the IR system
proposed by TLC. I use DCC control to operate my trains.
3 This is no joke to say that if 9V train motors are not produced anymore, I
will surely take the decision to stop organizing the event in Orléans (By the
way the next one is 11-12 november 2006 on a stand of 28mx3m). The reason why I
will stop is simply that I would like to keep my train motors as long as
possible in good shape over the next decades. If I use them for events, I know
they will get corrupted in few events, just like it happened already for two of
them. As long as Lego produces these motors, it is not a problem of money for
me, I can afford to buy few motors every year for the events. But if the 9V
train motor is discontinued, my decision will be to stop providing my motors for
events. This will almost surely kill our participation to Orléans' train model
railroad event. Our club will definitely survive from this decision, we have
many other events during the year and not only train events, but I wonder if my
friends organizing other FreeLUG train events would not take the same kind of
decision for the very same reasons.
In addition, I can tell you that at each event, hundreds of visitors are asking
us where to buy Lego train products. Yes that much! Over 10000 visitors, it may
be not so much in proportion, but we are always surprised by the number of
people still interested by Lego trains in Orléans and around. We are always very
disappointed to orient them to shop at home (many of them don't use internet),
just because the two local toys retailers in Orléans don't sell Lego train
products anymore. I recently asked one of them ("Le magasin bleu", Orléans) the
reason of this lack and he explained me that he ordered last november 2005 Lego
train products to TLC and he is still not delivered in march 2006.
Hope this helps,
Philippe "frogleap" Label, FreeLUG member.
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> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
I would assume this would cause problems over the long term. Since I own 20+ 9V
motors myself, and represent the major train interest in Victoria, BC. I have
done shows in the past around here, as well as aiding PNLTC, NALUG, NovaLUG, and
VLC. If I cannot get more 9V, then I start to have to ration what I do
have...because I am not really interested in buying signifigant quantities off
the secondary market if the supply from TLG is removed. Cost would be a major
factor in my decisions.
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
Don't know. Depends on how they work. If they work well, then I can see a
continued use of them. If they are garbage, then no, I would not A: buy them
except to part out, and B: exibit them. I have some 4.5V stuff...and I don't
exibit it. That is because of the "qualities" of it...
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
Fairly tightly I believe. Without the trains to tie my interest into lego, then
it becomes something cluttering my basement up. And I can use the space for OO
gauge...quite frankly, without new Lego designs, there is no point in occupying
400 sq ft of my basement, and a moderate amount of my income on Lego. This is
also tied to the giant colour issue...blay has been a major ick factor for a lot
of us who have signifigant collections. Killing 9V trains would be probably the
icing on the cake...I have other hobbies, and they would likely take my
time/money rather than Lego. I have more than enough Lego for my son to enjoy
:).
I'd like to point out:
http://www.bricksonthebrain.com/brickfest2005/
Contains some specific claims about the 9V line. If they are untrue, then our
faith in TLG will be diminished greatly.
James Powell
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
| |
If 9V trains do get discontinued...
1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
(List your club and number of appearances)
|
(Speaking for the Twin Cities LEGO Train Club)
No. We would continue to do our 2-4 shows a year until all of our 9 volt motors
die.
| |
2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
powered IR Trains?
|
Given the design restrictions that appear to be a part of the new system, I can
say that, in all probability, we won’t ever run the new system.
| |
3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
|
I have already begun plans to evolve beyond the 9 volt LEGO system into larger
scales utilizing non-LEGO train motors and track. I do know that the new system
(at least without HEAVY modification) won’t be a part of our future plans.
JOHN
TCLTC
|
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> > * No Technic sets using 9V anything
>
> The <http://www.peeron.com/inv/sets/8421-1 8421 crane> definitely uses the new
> 9V motor, and a new (apparently studless) battery box has appeared in some
> photos of the recently announced Technic sets, so I think 9V is still very much
> alive and well in Technic. Also 9V items are still available from LEGO
> Educational outlets.
The battery box is the same as they've been using for years (albeit a
new colour)
http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/2847c01
--
Dean Earley, Dee (dean@earlsoft.co.uk)
irc: irc://irc.blitzed.org/
web: http://personal.earlsoft.co.uk
phone: +44 (0)780 8369596
|
|
| |
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
>
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
Speaking as part of Michiana-LTC, we would continue to do shows until our
equipment gave out. We do about 3 or 4 shows per year.
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
Michiana-LTC will likely not widely adopt the new trains other than giving them
a small loop of their own. As an individual, I'm hoping to use the IR trains as
a primitive DCC system, burying the module inside a engine or two. The bulk of
the system as it currently stands is the greatest obstacle, the system's
potential could increase greatly if just seperated from the train base.
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
Extremely, the layout size will be fixed and gradually reduce as track wears out
and motors die. There will be no expansion.
-Stefan-
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In lugnet.trains, Dean Earley wrote:
> > > * No Technic sets using 9V anything
> >
> > The <http://www.peeron.com/inv/sets/8421-1 8421 crane> definitely uses the new
> > 9V motor, and a new (apparently studless) battery box has appeared in some
> > photos of the recently announced Technic sets, so I think 9V is still very much
> > alive and well in Technic. Also 9V items are still available from LEGO
> > Educational outlets.
>
> The battery box is the same as they've been using for years (albeit a
> new colour)
> http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/2847c01
No, I believe this set http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=1624588
contains a new style battery box.
ROSCO
|
|
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
>
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
>
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
>
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
>
>
> It is important that folks take this seriously and post honestly. If you have
> any other feedback in terms of how your club would be affected if 9V trains were
> discontinued please share that as well.
1. I would not show LEGO trains in public ever again. This is because my trains
are bigger than 8-wide, and I would be ashamed to mislead the public by
displaying an obsolete product. I'm not prepared to change my sales pitch from
an explanation of LEGO trains and where to buy them to an explanation of why TLG
were discontinuing 9V trains.
2. Some members of the Brickish Association might do, but I expect it would be
on a reduced level. There would no longer be the same enthusiasm.
3a. My plan to start a new local LEGO club depends heavily on my ability to
maintain the supply of new 9V train equipment. No 9V trains, no club. Period.
3b. Many core members of the Brickish Association are trainheads, and there is
much associated building of scenery items, so it would leave a big scar. The BA
would never be the same again.
There have been big changes. Grey has hurt particularly Castle builders (grey
core materials), studless beams have challenged Technic builders, but neither of
these changes has been a complete removal of product from sale - there has been
an alternative, however unpalatable. I expect utter devastation in the trains
community, at least until there was a proper alternative to 9V, powered by a
mains transformer. Batteries will not do.
LEGO has always been both a toy and a serious building medium. If TLG want it
to be just a toy, without adult fans, discontinuing 9V trains is a big step
towards that.
Eric, I hope you can see this as vitriol-free. I did my best to keep it in!
Mark
|
|
| |
In lugnet.trains, Mark Bellis wrote:
| |
LEGO has always been both a toy and a serious building medium. If TLG want it
to be just a toy, without adult fans, discontinuing 9V trains is a big step
towards that.
|
This is a good point which bears repeating in my mind. If TLG thinks that we as
LEGO train AFOLs think this will somehow be a BETTER system, then they are
(again) sorely mistaken. As Mark said, however, TLG is a toy company, so the
point may simply be moot, and we are (again) SOL.
I didn’t freak out when this new system was revealed, because it was my
understanding that it was going to be a companion, Jack Stone-ish entry into
LEGO trains, and that the two systems would exist side by side. This is still
my hope.
But if this is the death knell for the 9 volt system, then I will become like
the 12 volters whom I used to pity and run my 9 volt motors until they die. Po,
po, pitiful me.
JOHN
|
|
| |
Mark Bellis wrote:
> 1. I would not show LEGO trains in public ever again. This is
> because my trains are bigger than 8-wide, and I would be ashamed to
> mislead the public by displaying an obsolete product. I'm not
> prepared to change my sales pitch from an explanation of LEGO trains
> and where to buy them to an explanation of why TLG were discontinuing
> 9V trains.
Just a thought question from this: What do folks think about the fact that
almost every other model railroad displayed at a train show displays
obsolete, no longer available products? How about the American Flyer folks,
or the vintage Lionel folks? Do you think they should be ashamed? If not,
why is LEGO any different?
> 3a. My plan to start a new local LEGO club depends heavily on my
> ability to maintain the supply of new 9V train equipment. No 9V
> trains, no club. Period.
Wow. So your enjoyment of LEGO is so keyed to a specific product that if it
is no longer available, you can no longer have fun getting together with
other fans of that product?
I'm stunned at the doom and gloom.
Sure, it's a serious bummer that we may not be able to get new trains, and
anyone entering the hobby will have a hard time finding trains (but you know
what, probably 90% of the kids who would get sucked into LEGO trains as a
result of our displays would still get sucked in with the new trains, and I
bet a significant portion of them will be HAPPIER with the new trains).
> There have been big changes. Grey has hurt particularly Castle
> builders (grey core materials), studless beams have challenged
> Technic builders, but neither of these changes has been a complete
> removal of product from sale - there has been an alternative, however
> unpalatable. I expect utter devastation in the trains community, at
> least until there was a proper alternative to 9V, powered by a mains
> transformer. Batteries will not do.
So new greys are an alternative, but battery trains aren't?
What's amusing with all this "batteries will not do" is the number of garden
railroaders who are abandoning track power for battery power. Of course
G-scale trains have space for some pretty hefty batteries, but consider the
possibilities of a nice high tech rechargeable battery.
Frank
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
>
> Ted,
>
> This is very important feedback. Lets try an informal poll...
>
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
>
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
I asked other members of RichLUG to respond last evening so we could reach
consensus. So far Rich and Dustin have responded:
Rich - I don't believe that our club would disband over this. If it was a
decision by consensus to use the new train and tracks as our primary train, I
would most likely not participate in anymore events.
Dustin - Since we only do 3 shows a year, I don't think we'd cut back right away
- I think we'd stock up from what's left and Ebay - and then see how our supply
gets used over the next 5 years..
Bert - We are a LUG not a LTC. However, our shows are “train shows” and we may
choose to discontinue shows. We also fill a display case once a year.In the past
we’ve hosted Lego Day at the public library and have put together over a dozen
displays at train shows. These free PR events may discontinue but we will
probably continue to meet monthly and build.
>
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
Rich - I for one would use the new trains minus the batteries and IR control. I
bought an IR controlled car from Lego 3 years ago and it was “not very good”.
IR should be left for controlling TVs and DVD players. They don't even use that
technology in wireless controllers for the XBOX. I also don't think that the
trains will meet our power requirements for the type of trains we run and for
the layouts we are planning to build. Maybe if they had built a few more
descent looking trains before deciding to phase out 9 volt they may have sold
more and not decided to cut costs.
I also think it “is bad” that Lego is playing into something that the consumer
of these trains already has deemed a negative. I don't know how many times I
have been asked buy the public at a show if there was a battery pack in the
train. When I assured them that it was controlled just like any other model
train, they found that to be a comfort not a negative. In short I guess my
answer is NO.
Dustin - I doubt it - I'm waiting to see how this works - I will buy the Cargo
Train when it comes out - and I will test just how far/good the IR system works
- I'm very concerned about it requiring line of site and thus large layouts
being a huge problem for this platform. The concern of how longs the batteries
will last, how long of trains can the motor pull are huge concerns as well..
Bert – Never say never, but my gut feeling is no. I understand the limitations
of the 9V motor. I’ll see what Dustin’s IR Cargo Train is like. It sounds like
the IR system isn’t appropriate for shows so this question may be irrelevant.
>
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
Rich - I don't know. We are mostly a train club right now, but I would say we
have a lot of plans for nine volt in the future, and that what Lego is about to
provide would not be of much use for the direction we are going. I would rather
use DCC to operate trains and turnouts remotely than use a limited IR system.
Maybe that should have outsourced the development of this like the new RCX
system. They may have actually come up with something that made sense. I am
sorry to rant on this, but I strongly believe that no good will come of these
new trains. So I guess that our club is pretty closely tied to 9V trains.
Dustin - I wouldn't say it would be the end of the world...but I would think
that trains would be de-emphasized in our club...
Bert – I’m a big train enthusiast in our LUG and this would damper my
enthusiasim. Still, we’ve been together for 5 years now. We have discussed other
options for our LUG that don’t include public appearances. At least one member
of our group is burned out on public appearances.
I'll post more if other members of our LUG respond.
Thanks Eric!
>
> I will take your feedback and put together a document that I will submit through
> the channels I have open to me and we will see what happens.
>
> -Eric Kingsley
> LEGO Ambassador
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"Todd Thuma" <thumat@gactr.uga.edu> wrote in message
news:Iwus58.yn2@lugnet.com...
> In lugnet.trains, Todd Thuma wrote:
> > In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
[ ... snipped ... ]
>
> Has anyone inquired why IR was used and not radio? Something I read in a
> robot
> magazine said IR was more expensive than radio control.
>
> Sorry, for the mistake.
>
> Todd
Bluetooth would have been the right answer!
Mike
--
Mike Walsh - mike_walsh at mindspring.com
http://www.ncltc.cc - North Carolina LEGO Train Club
http://www.carolinatrainbuilders.com - Carolina Train Builders
http://www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=mpw - CTB/Brick Depot
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In lugnet.trains, Todd Thuma wrote:
> Has anyone inquired why IR was used and not radio? Something I read in a robot magazine said IR was more expensive than radio control.
Todd-
IR is cheaper and easier than R/C. R/C requires regulatory approval in many
places (like the US) and frequencies must vary with country. IR can be the same
everywhere and requires no approvals.
Of course IR has the disadvantage of being line of sight while radio does not.
Mass adoption of Bluetooth could make R/C very competitive economically in short
order.
-Ted
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In lugnet.trains, Frank Filz wrote:
> Just a thought question from this: What do folks think about the fact that
> almost every other model railroad displayed at a train show displays
> obsolete, no longer available products? How about the American Flyer folks,
> or the vintage Lionel folks? Do you think they should be ashamed? If not,
> why is LEGO any different?
Particular products may be "no longer available", but the *system* is still
available.
Just because the friendly N-scalers at the next layout are running a locomotive
that was last sold in 1985 doesn't change the fact that there are hundreds of
new pieces of N-scale rolling stock being put out every year, and that you can
buy enough N-scale track to go around the world if you wanted to.
(Ok, that might be a bit of hyperbole there... lol)
If "L-Gauge" ever became a standard NMRA recognized gauge, that might allow
other manufacturers to make track and motors. Right now we're stuck - it's
Lego, or it's nothing. And when our last remaining 9volt train motors die, our
trains will die with them.
And the battery powered option is *not* a suitable replacement.
JohnG, GMLTC
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In lugnet.trains, Frank Filz wrote:
>
> What's amusing with all this "batteries will not do" is the number of garden
> railroaders who are abandoning track power for battery power. Of course
> G-scale trains have space for some pretty hefty batteries, but consider the
> possibilities of a nice high tech rechargeable battery.
>
> Frank
For what its worth this is one thing I have asked specifically about and have
yet to get an answer. If there were a really good rechargable battery would
that make a differance.
My feeling is that it depends on the following.
1. Pulling power of the battery powered motor. (Can we run the trains that we
currently run).
2. Cost.
3. Recharge time
4. Run time on a charge.
5. Ease of use (how easy is it to switch out a battery pack.
Speaking as a fan, I would at aleast consider a rechargable battery option.
There is the "battery" stigma that is apparent when you do a show. Batteries
are for toys and electric track is for serious hobbiests. For me if the battery
pack was of significant quality and the motor was able to pull a significantly
long train for a significant time period then I *might* consider switching.
Of course I also don't like IR, RC would have been much better so that is a
consideration as well.
Also in terms of my club (NELUG) we would most certainly survive. We would
probably continue doing train shows in the short term and our club viability is
in no way tied to 9V trains although it would be a great disappointment if they
are discontinued.
The feedback so far has been very helpful. I would like to leave this open for
another week to allow other clubs to state their feelings. I just don't want to
wait to long before stating our case. So please post sooner rather than later.
-Eric
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
>
> The feedback so far has been very helpful. I would like to leave this open for
> another week to allow other clubs to state their feelings. I just don't want to
> wait to long before stating our case. So please post sooner rather than later.
>
>
> -Eric
One more. Tim from RichLUG wrote:
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
>
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public
> appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
No and no (at least not right away). We only do about 3-4 public
appearances each year. Amoung our group, we have a significant amount of
track, motors and controllers - enough to continue to run large layouts for
years to come. That being said, I think the P.R. damage would come when we
would tell spectators at our shows that the materials are no longer
available. I think that would seriously dampen the enthusiams of the
viewers and turn them away from exploring getting their own sets (i.e.
buying Lego). We have had many repeat visitors to our displays tell us that
they went out and bought Lego (either for themselves or, more often, their
children) because they saw our layout.
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
Doubful although the key property of Lego is its versatility and
adaptability. I'm sure there would be creative response to the IR trains.
As Rich said, at most, we would likely convert the IR trains to 9v trains.
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
Survival is a pretty strong word. Our club would continue. Our enthusiasm
for trains might eventually wane. Although the train clubs are a vast
minority of the Lego buying population, they are in the vanguard of Lego
"evangelicals", so to speak. The amount and value of the free P.R.
generated by club appearances should not be underestimated. Business
history teaches that when a company loses their most faithful customers,
their less faithful customers will soon follow. I really can not see any
reason to discontinue 9v. It's fine to add IR as an alternative but
senseless to kill off the 9v line (unless we are missing something and 9v is
just causing Lego to hemorage money).
Tim
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In lugnet.trains, Bert Waters wrote:
> (unless we are missing something and 9v is
> just causing Lego to hemorage money).
In which case it might be interesting to answer: How much more would you (or
your club) be willing to pay for 9V track and accessories?
ROSCO
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In lugnet.trains, Ross Crawford wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Bert Waters wrote:
> > (unless we are missing something and 9v is
> > just causing Lego to hemorage money).
>
> In which case it might be interesting to answer: How much more would you (or
> your club) be willing to pay for 9V track and accessories?
>
> ROSCO
Tim actually wrote this. I've just been compiling our responses. That's a good
question.We purchased 20 packs of track at a brick and mortar with the 10% LUG
discount several weeks ago.That was still $240 for 160 straights. Would I pay
LEGO $16 for a box of straights? I don't want to think about it.I'm not going to
guess the price elasticity of discontinued 9V track and motors. That's what
BrickLink is for.
I'm guessing we have 50 plus 9V motors between us and a thousand plus straight
track. We only used a small portion of our track at the last show. Our future
train investment would mainly go into rolling stock and bulk bricks for building
unless a new layout demanded more track. Our next layout at GATS might just do
that unless of course, the track's been discontinued.
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
Dear Eric,
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
The club is already inactive as club. 1000steine is running and guiding the fan
activity in Germany. Me and other (former?) FGLTC members join the
1000steine-land and other shows like the LEGOWORLD in Zwolle (NL). I am
convinced my LEGO train + town models have been presented to surly 100000+
visitors last year.
Without 9V trains I will display less. And I am not willing to promote TLC if
they do not even "support" me, by selling me track for 20 Eur per meter and
motors for 40$ per piece (these are the prices we have to pay here in Europe!).
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
Not me and I haven't heard of any other Co-AFOL in Germany who will (although
there are of course always minorities for everything).
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
Without 9V trains there can not be a LTC in Germany. Trains are called
"Eisenbahn" (= iron-railway) over here. A plastic system can't be a "Eisenbahn".
without Eisenbahn there can't be a Eisenbahn-Club (LTC)
Lego lost a huge supporter in me when the changed to blay. But I was still at
shows to promote my hobby and the LEGO idea of a system (but not the LEGO
Company). Without "Eisenbahn"-system there is not much to promote at all...
Leg Godt!
Ben
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
> This is very important feedback. Lets try an informal poll...
>
> If 9V trains do get discontinued...
>
> 1. Would your club disband or significantly cut back on public appearances?
> (List your club and number of appearances)
>
> 2. Are there any clubs that would continue to show using the new Battery
> powered IR Trains?
>
> 3. How tightly are 9V trains and your clubs survival tied together?
Having not actually used the new trains, some of this is conjecture. Running
one for a weekend on a layout first will give me a better perspective. But..
From what I have seen, I doubt they would be suitable replacements for the
existing system. My main concerns revolve around total running time, how much
they can pull, and the fact that you can't leave an unattended display running
on a night/day or user-activated timer.
(We = Puget Sound Lego Train Club, doing between 4 and 6 shows per year.)
1: We would not disband or cut back right away. In the long run (a couple of
years?), I would guess yes. As motors burn out, we'd have to stop.
2: I fully plan on buying a locomotive to occasionally run along with the
existing trains, to get a second train on a single circuit. But I don't see
these replacing the old trains.
3: If the battery trains have the expected limitations, the loss of the 9V
trains is likely the end of the club within a few years.
--
Tony Hafner
www.hafhead.com
www.psltc.org
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--snip---
I’m sure this has been posted somewhere but I’ve been out of the LEGO loop for
about a year now. What is this RC Track and IR Train that I keep
reading about?
And images, links, thanks?
-AHui
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Frank Filz wrote:
> >
> > What's amusing with all this "batteries will not do" is the number of garden
> > railroaders who are abandoning track power for battery power. Of course
> > G-scale trains have space for some pretty hefty batteries, but consider the
> > possibilities of a nice high tech rechargeable battery.
> >
> > Frank
>
> For what its worth this is one thing I have asked specifically about and have
> yet to get an answer. If there were a really good rechargable battery would
> that make a differance.
>
> My feeling is that it depends on the following.
>
> 1. Pulling power of the battery powered motor. (Can we run the trains that we
> currently run).
>
> 2. Cost.
>
> 3. Recharge time
>
> 4. Run time on a charge.
>
> 5. Ease of use (how easy is it to switch out a battery pack.
>
> Speaking as a fan, I would at aleast consider a rechargable battery option.
> There is the "battery" stigma that is apparent when you do a show. Batteries
> are for toys and electric track is for serious hobbiests. For me if the battery
> pack was of significant quality and the motor was able to pull a significantly
> long train for a significant time period then I *might* consider switching.
>
> Of course I also don't like IR, RC would have been much better so that is a
> consideration as well.
(SNIP)
>
> -Eric
It seems there are a few types of rechargeable batteries to consider:
NiCds are made obsolete by the European RoHS directive (banning Cadmium), and
they also suffer from memory effect.
NiMH are becoming more common in standard sizes but apparently suffer from
memory effect, and if they don't last long in my camera, how good are they at
driving motors for hours?
Li-ion I know less about. If these have no memory effect then they might work.
Lead-acid are well known but large and heavy. Using 12V to control 9V gives
some headroom for the on-board electronics but is less convenient than smaller
voltage increments of other types. Gel types would be best, given the tendency
for some LEGO trains to leave the rails or to need turning over for repair.
Does anyone know what type of batteries are used by the trains in Legoland
parks? My idea is to make a similar system whereby the trains would do a few
circuits and stop over some contacts to charge up the batteries. The contacts
would not be connected to the track in any way, so no modifcation to motors
would be required (to electrically separate the wheels from the motor, as is
done with DCC). It's just a case of which batteries to use and the fact that a
smaller battery would be small and light enough to fit in a train but would only
do a limited number of circuits. This limit fits with the sort of operation on
other model railways at shows anyway - often one circuit per train and swap to
the next one.
We're getting more into robot territory here. Some robots return to their base
station to charge up their batteries.
Control would be RC, so that a fiddle yard under the scenery is still possible.
Some layouts might require a (reed switch?) train detection system, since there
would be no block section control.
If this system is a go-er, it might just save the train shows.
Mark
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Here is a gallery hosted at ILTCO:
http://www.iltco.org/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album41
-- Bryan
"Ahui Herrera" <jedi_agh@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Ix26MJ.24E6@lugnet.com...
> --snip---
> I'm sure this has been posted somewhere but I've been out of the LEGO loop
> for
> about a year now. What is this RC Track and IR Train that I keep
> reading about?
>
> And images, links, thanks?
>
> -AHui
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In lugnet.trains, Mark Bellis wrote:
| |
It seems there are a few types of rechargeable batteries to consider:
NiCds are made obsolete by the European RoHS directive (banning Cadmium), and
they also suffer from memory effect.
NiMH are becoming more common in standard sizes but apparently suffer from
memory effect, and if they don’t last long in my camera, how good are they at
driving motors for hours?
Li-ion I know less about. If these have no memory effect then they might
work.
Lead-acid are well known but large and heavy. Using 12V to control 9V gives
some headroom for the on-board electronics but is less convenient than smaller
voltage increments of other types. Gel types would be best, given the
tendency for some LEGO trains to leave the rails or to need turning over for
repair.
Does anyone know what type of batteries are used by the trains in Legoland
parks? My idea is to make a similar system whereby the trains would do a few
circuits and stop over some contacts to charge up the batteries. The contacts
would not be connected to the track in any way, so no modifcation to motors
would be required (to electrically separate the wheels from the motor, as is
done with DCC). It’s just a case of which batteries to use and the fact that
a smaller battery would be small and light enough to fit in a train but would
only do a limited number of circuits. This limit fits with the sort of
operation on other model railways at shows anyway - often one circuit per
train and swap to the next one.
We’re getting more into robot territory here. Some robots return to their
base station to charge up their batteries.
Control would be RC, so that a fiddle yard under the scenery is still
possible. Some layouts might require a (reed switch?) train detection system,
since there would be no block section control.
If this system is a go-er, it might just save the train shows.
Mark
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The trains at LLCA apear to use gel cell/lead acid batteries.
I’m considering a similar system, and have already tested something like it. I
built a 4 wide train for a recent display. I used 4.5v track but had it spaced 2
studs apart enstead of 4 studs apart. The idea was to make a kids train for a
fair. 
I used a modified racers moter, replacing the super cap with a AA NiMH in a 9v
battery box.I had to replace the AA cell every 3 hours or so. But the eventual
plan is to use a larger super cap, and some 12v center rails. The super caps
only need a second or two to reach a near full charge. So one or 2 of the center
rails and some homemade pick up wipers should keep the train running as long as
I have power. There’s no reason why I couldn’t put a RC circuit in between the
“battery” and the motor.
Mat
Mat
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Thanks Bryan..
The frieght train looks nice.
The passanger train just one word: YUK! (jr. junk...)
I know you and perhaps others may not know this but I’ll ask anyways.
Will there be a way for us to take that new track and add the metal strips to
get it to work with our current 9 volt?
I understand why they (TLC) is going this route. (Lower entry point = more
people willing to buy the train sets = more LEGO sold). Just hope TLC adds
“town stuff” to go with the new trains that is “worth it” (read NOT jr. stuff).
But we will have to wait to see. I’m NOT holding my breath any more for them.
Priorities in life have changed and the brick has been in the closet for about 1
year now and most likely will continue in there for some time to come. Sad I
know but that is life... Guess I have a decision to make soon. Buy the 9V
track I need for my “dream layout” or restart with the new track. Hum... =/
Does anyone know if any 3rd party vendors might be able to convert the new track
to 9v track or who will be able to make the 9v motors? Are any 3rd party
vendoes even on the horizon?
Thanks, AHui
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In lugnet.trains, Ahui Herrera wrote:
| |
Thanks Bryan..
The frieght train looks nice.
The passanger train just one word: YUK! (jr. junk...)
I know you and perhaps others may not know this but I’ll ask anyways.
Will there be a way for us to take that new track and add the metal strips to
get it to work with our current 9 volt?
|
Hi Ahui and welcome back,
To answer your question : there’s no way - let me explain :
Jan told us that, in order to be compatible (sic) with the metallic tracks, new
insulated tracks are a bit thicker to adjust the size.
So if you add a metal strips, the resulting track will be a bit too much thick
compared to the current metallic tracks.
So you can’t use them both in combination. (unless you want to reproduce rail
cracks and make your trains to run off the track)
Anyway, I consider making some modding on the future train line parts is not a
solution because most of us don’t have the required skills.
Didier
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In lugnet.trains, Didier Enjary wrote:
| |
Anyway, I consider making some modding on the future train line parts is not
a solution because most of us don’t have the required skills.
Didier
|
I think this is a very important point. Most of us are quite resourceful and
some have come up with their own custom track parts. The problem is most of us
don’t have those skills and to purchase those parts on the second hand market is
very expensive.
Most of us need the product from LEGO to make things work at an affordable
price.
-Eric Kingsley
http://save.9vtrains.com/
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
| |
In lugnet.trains, Didier Enjary wrote:
| |
Anyway, I consider making some modding on the future train line parts is not
a solution because most of us don’t have the required skills.
Didier
|
I think this is a very important point. Most of us are quite resourceful and
some have come up with their own custom track parts. The problem is most of
us don’t have those skills and to purchase those parts on the second hand
market is very expensive.
Most of us need the product from LEGO to make things work at an affordable
price.
-Eric Kingsley
http://save.9vtrains.com/
|
I’m not sure it’s safe to assume that LEGO would be the lowest cost provider of
9v items. What if they licensed it to another entity to reduce overhead,
marketing and production costs? I agree with your main point, however, that
private party modified parts are expensive and not readily available.
Ed
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Eric Kingsley wrote:
> Sure post anything that you feel would be helpful.
Ok, I'll add my $0.02 to the pile.
Summary: Lego trains are the reason there are now 100,000 Lego bricks in
my Lego room upstairs.
Details: When I was a little kid in Wisconsin in the 1970s, we had HO
trains in the basement (didn't everybody?). We had a big layout and did
lots of electrical stuff. I learned most of what I know about motors
and electricity and such via the trains. I built some little balsawood
buildings and a covered bridge that kept getting broken when my brothers
weren't careful. And the trains would sometimes tumble to the floor and
break and that was really, really, really bad because they were
expensive. And they couldn't be fixed except poorly with plastic
cement. We also had some Brix Blox (Sears Lego knock-off) for building
what today might be called great ball contraptions, but just a small bucket.
Then we moved to a new house and then I went to college and grad school
and then got married and had some kids and ended up in Raleigh, NC.
(While in Kansas I had done some N gauge railroading but nothing in a
big way. My N gauge stuff currently is in a box in the garage. Of
course, because the kids would break the trains just by touching them,
this was something I did on my own.) In about 1999, my second son's
preschool teach recommended "Legos" as a way for him to improve his fine
motor skills. So we got a bucket. And some other stuff.
And then one day the Great American Train Show came to Raleigh. We had
an open Saturday and some time and a dollar-off coupon. So we went.
And we saw the train clubs and the N gauge layouts and HO layouts and
such. Fun layouts, saw mills and trestles, brocolli trees, plaster
landscaping. Dirty and gritty, just like real railroads. Serious
people with serious toys. Oh, and don't touch! No! No! No!
Grumpy-looking guys keeping the kids away with threatening stares.
Then I saw the NCLTC display. Wow. Pretty colors. Fun goofy things on
the layout like a Santa parade and a monorail in a spiral and Thomas the
Tank Engine in LEGO! And a play table for the kids. And trains zipping
around and Mike Walsh and Cary Clark (and the others) talking to
zillions of people about the hobby and the trains and collecting canned
goods in exchange for a ticket to win a Lego set.
Wow. Wow. Wow.
And I kept thinking as I watched a train tumble to the edge of the table
and fall to the ground and break and hear the Lego train guys *laugh*:
"Wait a minute, if it breaks, you ... just ... put ... it ... back ...
together!" Whoa, dude. NOW I CAN GET BACK INTO TRAINS!
So I happen to see the blue train in the next catalog and get one for
Zach for Christmas and Harry gets that red one and I get them a ton of
track and we set them up and build them and I get one of the MOT sets
for Olivia and a Metroliner for me and soon we have trains and we build
tunnels and buildings and all sorts of things!
And then I find out about Mindstorms and get me one of those and find
out the train controller plugs into the RCX so I don't need batteries
and then the kids build a combination Star Wars Police Johnny Thunder
Fort Legorado Train and we run it with the RCX and IT ALL WORKS
TOGETHER! And if it breaks, we just put is back together!
And I'm buying Lego train stuff and other Lego stuff and finding stuff
on the internet and I find Lugnet and NCLUG and NCLTC and am having more
fun as an adult than I ever had with HO trains as a kid and I play with
the kids together. And the neighbor kid wanders in one day when my wife
and I and the kids are playing and says "Wow! You guys have Family Lego
Night?!?! That is so cool! I wish we had that at our house. My dad
won't let me play with his radio control cars. I broke his helicopter
and I got grounded."
And the Lego Trains 1981-2003 poster hangs on the wall in the lego room.
And last summer Harry and I went to Brickfest and had a ball and all the
kids in the neighborhood think the Great Ball Contraption is the
greatest thing in the world.
Ok, so they changed the greys and brown. I'll survive. I think it was
unbelievably stupid, but I'll survive.
But now they are going to get rid of the 9V train line? What, are they
nuts? "Say it isn't so, Joe."
The way I see it, there's not much that really needs to be kept: train
motors, track with metal rails, the controller, the wires, and the
wheels. If we never get new sets, I'd be fine with that; please,
please, please don't make regret playing with my trains because I'll
risk wearing out the motors. And please let me still buy more track (in
a color that will match what I have!).
Look at how people still love the monorail years after it is gone.
Don't make that mistake again.
Ok, that's that.
Rafe
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In lugnet.trains, Ed McGlynn wrote:
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In lugnet.trains, Eric Kingsley wrote:
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In lugnet.trains, Didier Enjary wrote:
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Anyway, I consider making some modding on the future train line parts is
not a solution because most of us don’t have the required skills.
Didier
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I think this is a very important point. Most of us are quite resourceful
and some have come up with their own custom track parts. The problem is
most of us don’t have those skills and to purchase those parts on the second
hand market is very expensive.
Most of us need the product from LEGO to make things work at an affordable
price.
-Eric Kingsley
http://save.9vtrains.com/
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I’m not sure it’s safe to assume that LEGO would be the lowest cost provider
of 9v items. What if they licensed it to another entity to reduce overhead,
marketing and production costs? I agree with your main point, however, that
private party modified parts are expensive and not readily available.
Ed
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The MILLION dollar question is... Is there a 3rd Party Vendor even interested
in making the 9V parts? TLC could offer the license (I doubt they will) but if
there is no party interetsed then it is pointless.
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Rafe Donahue wrote:
> The way I see it, there's not much that really needs to be kept: train
> motors, track with metal rails, the controller, the wires, and
> the wheels. If we never get new sets, I'd be fine with that; please,
> please, please don't make regret playing with my trains because I'll
> risk wearing out the motors. And please let me still buy more track
> (in a color that will match what I have!).
Here's a reality check. The way LEGO makes train track is realy just wrong.
It's way more expensive than it needs to be. Result - LEGO really can't
afford to keep producing the existing 9v track and hope to remain
profitable.
The way I see it, the current 9v track is DEAD. And there's nothing we can
do about it. Unless we're each willing to pony up 1000s of dollars every few
years to get them to make a run of it - but even that wouldn't work because
the tooling is more than just molds, the plant that manufactures the track
has specific machines to do it, those machines may do other things also, and
probably LEGO could come back to them in 2 years and get track made, but I
bet in 10 years, LEGO would not be able to get track made.
The only viable solution I see to hobby 9v track is for one of the existing
model railroad companies to decide they could make flex track tie strips in
L-guage, to fit one of their existing rail sizes. That would get us all the
track, of any radius, we need for the cost of ONE mold, which would probably
be useable for decades (until it wears out, but if they wear out the mold,
they would have an idea of how much demand there is and would make a new
mold if demand was sufficient). Of course that doesn't get us turnouts and
crossings.
The LEGO train motor is probably also more complex than it needs to be. That
would be a pricier thing for a 3rd party to produce, but perhaps if a
company is making the track, they would make a generic motor (and also a
generic wheel set). Some scale modeler will come up with the perfect
scale/guage convention and a scale model hobby would develop using the same
guage (yea, right, fat chance of that - the guage is too close to O, unless
somehow it turns out it's a better narrow guage for one of the many G scales
[1:20.3, 1:22.5, 1:24, 1:29, 1:32] than O).
So that's the reality. LEGO can not afford to keep manufacturing the current
9v line given the sales they get. There's nothing we can do about that
(other than somehow increasing our hobby 10x or 100x in the next few
months). It's simple economics (oh, I guess we could convince some socialist
government that LEGO trains are vital to the well being of their people...).
Frank
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In lugnet.trains, Frank Filz wrote:
> So that's the reality. LEGO can not afford to keep manufacturing the current
> 9v line given the sales they get. There's nothing we can do about that
> (other than somehow increasing our hobby 10x or 100x in the next few
> months). It's simple economics (oh, I guess we could convince some socialist
> government that LEGO trains are vital to the well being of their people...).
Without actually having seen the numbers in regards to the company's sales and
manufacturering costs, I'm not sure any of us can say definately that that's the
reality. We can speculate a lot, but without some hard numbers, I don't think
we can know for sure that any particular product line is dead. Sales might be
minimal where we are, but incredible in some other part of the country or world.
The info that I've read so far is that the company will be taking a look at the
line in 2007. That's it. A lot of people take that to mean that the end is
already here. I haven't heard an end of life statement yet, so I'll take them
at their word that they are going to look at it. The company I work for takes a
look at the products it sells all the time, even if we've carried it for 60
years. It doesn't mean that we're not going to sell the product any more, it
just means that we are looking at the sales, and *then* making decisions.
Sometimes we keep selling the product, sometimes we don't. I think that's the
case with most businesses. I think that's the case with the 9v line.
-Elroy
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In lugnet.trains, Rafe Donahue wrote:
> Eric Kingsley wrote:
>
> > Sure post anything that you feel would be helpful.
>
> Ok, I'll add my $0.02 to the pile.
>
> Summary: Lego trains are the reason there are now 100,000 Lego bricks in
> my Lego room upstairs.
Dear Rafe,
thanks for your story here. It was more worth than just 2 cent for me! I only
hope some people at LEGO see, that metal track trains attract lots of people and
that these often enough end with a 100.000 ++ collection of bricks.
And this would not happen with baby trains....
But we are talking about the LEGO company and their managers. The company is not
very well known to behave in a rational way. I usually fear the worst and in
most cases I was not creative enough to foresee how bad it comes later on.
Leg Godt!
Ben
(personally I have enough 9V stuff for ever. So if I complain against an end of
9V, it is not dealing with egoism. I do not need any further 9V track. 800+
pieces of track are enough as a dozen transformers are.)
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In lugnet.trains, Rafe Donahue wrote:
> Eric Kingsley wrote:
>
> > Sure post anything that you feel would be helpful.
>
> Ok, I'll add my $0.02 to the pile.
Hey, I have $0.02 here is my take.
> Summary: Lego trains are the reason there are now 100,000 Lego bricks in
> my Lego room upstairs.
I’m with you here. In 2002 I went to my first Brickfest. At that point I had
just about no bricks and no Lego room. After that I started with castle but
still did not have much in the way of bricks or a need for a Lego room. I was
avoiding the Lego trains because I knew all about the train bug. But in 2004 I
bought my first train and set up a Xmas display at home. The bug bit me… Since
then I have spent so much money on Lego that I stopped keeping track because I
did not like the numbers. You know, what you don’t know won’t hurt you. Any way
I now have a Lego room.
> Details: When I was a little kid in Wisconsin in the 1970s, we had HO
> trains in the basement (didn't everybody?).
I to had trains in our house when I was a kid. My dad had Lionel, my brother had
American Flyer and they gave me HO. My first town was made from paper that I
folded into buildings. We never had bricks in my house. I would only get to
build with Lego when I visited friends who had them. I thought Lego was the
coolest of all building sets. As far as hobby trains go I made layouts at Xmas
time some of them were more then 20 feet long. In fact, one year I talked my
parents into letting me take down the wall between our living room and dining
room so I could build the mega layout. Once I left home I never did a layout
again until my Lego 2004 Xmas layout.
> And then one day the Great American Train Show came to Raleigh. We had
> an open Saturday and some time and a dollar-off coupon. So we went.
> And we saw the train clubs and the N gauge layouts and HO layouts and
> such. Fun layouts, saw mills and trestles, brocolli trees, plaster
> landscaping. Dirty and gritty, just like real railroads.
In fact all my old trains are still in the attic but I like Lego much better
as a product. Sure you can get much more realistic with HO or N gauge but using
Lego is much more of a challenge. When your HO layout gets old and dirty or you
want to change it you have to trash it and buy new supplies to build again where
as with Lego you can take it apart and make something else with the bricks.
> And I kept thinking as I watched a train tumble to the edge of the table
> and fall to the ground and break and hear the Lego train guys *laugh*:
> "Wait a minute, if it breaks, you ... just ... put ... it ... back ...
> together!" Whoa, dude. NOW I CAN GET BACK INTO TRAINS!
The first Lego train show I participated in, my train hit the concrete floor
from three feet up. In less then ten minutes it was back together and running in
the display.
> And then I find out about Mindstorms and get me one of those and find
> out the train controller plugs into the RCX so I don't need batteries
> and then the kids build a combination Star Wars Police Johnny Thunder
> Fort Legorado Train and we run it with the RCX and IT ALL WORKS
> TOGETHER! And if it breaks, we just put is back together!
I see Mindstorms as my next step in the Lego train seen.
> And I'm buying Lego train stuff and other Lego stuff and finding stuff
> on the internet and I find Lugnet and NCLUG and NCLTC and am having more
> fun as an adult than I ever had with HO trains as a kid and I play with
> the kids together.
Yes I buy second hand and new parts from the Internet but I spend just as much
on Lego retail. I think that even the second hand market helps sell Lego
products for two reasons. First some people buy new products knowing they can
sell the parts they don’t want. Also things that I build with second hand parts
make MOCs that are displayed in public. Then little Johnny sees them and is
getting Mom to buy him Lego kits.
> Ok, so they changed the grays and brown. I'll survive. I think it was
> unbelievably stupid, but I'll survive.
Well at least this gives us a larger color pallet to build from. Even my “old
light gray” collection has many shades of discoloring. Just one more challenge
in building.
> The way I see it, there's not much that really needs to be kept: train
> motors, track with metal rails, the controller, the wires, and the
> wheels. If we never get new sets, I'd be fine with that; please,
> please, please don't make regret playing with my trains because I'll
> risk wearing out the motors. And please let me still buy more track (in
> a color that will match what I have!).
Amen
> Look at how people still love the monorail years after it is gone.
> Don't make that mistake again.
I saw my first monorail last year at Brickfest. I love it. If Lego was making it
now I would be buying it. It seems so strange that monorail that is so
futuristic is now gone by the way side. At least someone in the club has
monorail so we can have it in our displays from time to time.
I just did a display at the “The Great Scale Model Train Show” last weekend.
There is a vendor that sells Lego train at the show. The bigger the display we
have the more he sells. Fathers bring their family to the show to see the
displays while dad shops for his hobby trains. The kids see the Lego layout and
go wild. Then they get mom or dad to buy them Lego trains at the show. The
parent will ask us where they can find Lego trains so we send them over to the
Lego vendor. The next thing you see is the family come back and the kid has a
bag of Lego sets they just bought. A train hobbyist asked me where he can get
Lego trains because he wants to run a Lego set around the edge of his layout so
the kids can play with them and not be playing with his trains. The best part of
doing a Lego train display is the kids.
Rafe, I’m with you.
Ed.
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In lugnet.trains, Rafe Donahue wrote:
> Eric Kingsley wrote:
>
> > Sure post anything that you feel would be helpful.
>
> Ok, I'll add my $0.02 to the pile.
>
> Summary: Lego trains are the reason there are now 100,000 Lego bricks in
> my Lego room upstairs.,
.
.
.
.
> Ok, that's that.
> Rafe
I wish to add my $0.02 worth also
I think this story can be told by many Rafe, just change the names and ages and
you have summed up my history with Lego Trains as well.
(which has now made me a bit paranoid, is someone watching me?)
I belong to BLTG, Brisbane Lego Train Group. We have not joined ILTCO yet but we
are getting to it.
We have been doing Lego Train displays at Model Railroad shows for 5 years here
in Australia, we do 4 to 5 shows a year. Over 20k a year easily have seen our
displays.
We are able to sell train items at the Train shows as well run them because Lego
Trains are not readily available down under. Over the years people have got to
know that we sell limited lego train items and and now turn up to the shows to
buy them from us. We are also now starting to get an interest from some local
companies who want us to custom build trains with their logo and have them
running on a layout. They are also willing to pay for it.
The new battery operated trains probably won't be any good for us as we tend to
run trains at shows for 30mins to 60mins at a time. We also tend to run double
headers and have three running tracks. Six locos running at a time for eight to
ten hours a day for 2 or 3 days, 4 to 5 times a year, that comes to a lot of
batteries and money to buy them, money which I would rather spend on lego.
So the BLTG will stay with the 9V motors and regulators and keep our group going
for as long as we can.
But I'm not particularly worried that TLC with stop producing the 9V train
items, that being motors, regulators, metal covered tracks, etc.
As I see it they are trying to get into the 5 - 8 year old market, why I'm not
sure as its got plenty of train brands in it anyway.
The 9V system is typically for older children say 8 to 13yrs, so they are trying
to extend the train items from 5 to 13yrs.
They recognize one system can't do this as 8 to 13yrs want something more grown
up, like the big boys at the train shows.
Hence the Hobby line idea. Which to my way of thinking would be the 9V motor and
regulator along with the metal tracks.
These items probably would only be available at S@H. The battery train would be
in the shops for Mums and Dads to buy for the young ones, who when they get a
bit older would want to move into the Hobby line. Use the same trains just get
the kids to upgrade them using the 9V motor and get metal tracks. And use the
many Lego Train displays around the world to advertise what's possible (without
paying a cent)
We will probably being doing this at BLTG, as well as many other lego trains
clubs I imagine.
TLC does not have to make much of a profit on the Hobby line items, because as
many have mentioned, you need a lot of lego pieces to make a train layout, (very
few of which need to be 9V train items)
So profits will be made on selling the bricks, not the train motors, tracks etc.
If TLC is able to make this happen then they will be able to keep the lego train
idea alive, and make money.
If they get rid of the 9V train line then I don't think they will have a snow
balls chance in hell of competing in the battery operated train market because
to date I don't think Lego has been very successful with any battery operated
toy they produced. (not Mindstorms). And by the tone of the discussion the
battery operated trains don't inspire many of us AFOL's to go out and purchase
bucket fulls of the stuff, like a new geometry metal track would.
To me, it does not make sense to get rid of the 9V train items, especially when
it just starting to get on its feet, thanks mainly to the many Lego Train Groups
public displays.
You would have to think that with all the secret meetings and NDA's that have
been mentioned something fruitful would be happening.
I live in hope, I just pray its not a false hope
Gary
BLTG
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In lugnet.trains, Gary Quinlan wrote:
>
> I belong to BLTG, Brisbane Lego Train Group. We have not joined ILTCO yet but we
> are getting to it.
> We have been doing Lego Train displays at Model Railroad shows for 5 years here
> in Australia, we do 4 to 5 shows a year. Over 20k a year easily have seen our
> displays.
> We are able to sell train items at the Train shows as well run them because Lego
> Trains are not readily available down under. Over the years people have got to
> know that we sell limited lego train items and and now turn up to the shows to
> buy them from us. We are also now starting to get an interest from some local
> companies who want us to custom build trains with their logo and have them
> running on a layout. They are also willing to pay for it.
> The new battery operated trains probably won't be any good for us as we tend to
> run trains at shows for 30mins to 60mins at a time. We also tend to run double
> headers and have three running tracks. Six locos running at a time for eight to
> ten hours a day for 2 or 3 days, 4 to 5 times a year, that comes to a lot of
> batteries and money to buy them, money which I would rather spend on lego.
> So the BLTG will stay with the 9V motors and regulators and keep our group going
> for as long as we can.
Hi Gary,
I'd really encourage you guys to voice this information to ILTCO, or at
http://save.9vtrains.com/ - if TLC don't hear it, they can't take it into
account when making their decision. And it appears their deadline is not far
off.
ROSCO
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