 | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Simon Robinson
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| | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: Hmmm - interesting. Some good points there about what actually happened with the blue hoppers. Unfortunately, although you've responded to points made by several other people, you haven't directly (...) (25 years ago, 11-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) OK, what if I buy up ten of them now at $35 each from Larry or wherever with the intent of holding them for a year and selling them for $60. That's still a useful service. There are a whole slew categories of customers that would be receiving (...) (25 years ago, 11-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Simon Robinson
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| | | | (...) That's an interesting one, which you could argue on both sides. Oddly, the service you'd claim to be providing here is as much as anything a redistribution service - from people who want sets now to people who may want the sets next year (...) (25 years ago, 13-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) Cute. I think the difference is that one is voluntary. (...) I guess what you're talking about is whether there is a net benefit. Clearly I'd be benifitting some people - the ones who buy them from me. (...) This must be why I prefer the (...) (25 years ago, 13-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | A few nits. Clarifications, really. (...) And as long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. (remember, free goods are not a right, nor is it a right that you must accept custom from anyone) (...) or fraud. But of course I hold fraud to be a (...) (25 years ago, 13-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) Well, I sort of meant that if everyone affected by the deal agrees to it, then nothing else matters. I assume you agree that you can waive your rights if you so choose. (...) I know that Libertarians are into the Force 'n' Fraud phrase, and I (...) (25 years ago, 15-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) If you're asking me for a legal definition, I'm not sure. but my common sense opinion is that common sense is indeed required. (...) Here I think i am on a bit firmer ground when I say that I think, legally, saying something is one way when (...) (25 years ago, 15-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —James Brown
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| | | | | | | (...) Hmm. What about selling stock off in advance of the release of bad news? This happened quite recently with Correl Corp... Shortly before they announced lower than expected profits (dropping the stock price), the president sold off 1/3 of his (...) (25 years ago, 15-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Simon Robinson
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| | | | | | | (...) You seem to imply there's a difference between being 'wrong' and being 'unsavoury', but I can't see any difference in principle - perhaps a small difference of degree in that 'unsavoury' implies a smaller amount of wrongness. Also, aren't you (...) (25 years ago, 18-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) OK, I guess I don't know what 'wrong' means in a judgemental sense. I'm not even sure that I'm willing to acknowledge that it means anything. I'll listen if you want to define it though. If someone hurts my loved ones I'm pretty liberal in (...) (25 years ago, 18-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Simon Robinson
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| | | | (...) I'm not so sure of that. Once you've got the sets that you're (hypothetically) planning on holding for a year, there's nothing anyone who wants to buy the sets earlier than that can do. This redistribution may have been instigated by a private (...) (25 years ago, 18-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | (...) OK, it's as voluntary as anything ever is. I don't feel responsible to make things better than they can be. (...) Well, I don't think anyone is harmed - unless I spend so much that I can't buy groceries. So the net benefit of the transactions (...) (25 years ago, 18-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | | Christopher Weeks wrote in message <380B0F8D.112B4FA6@e...se.net>... (...) may (...) it (...) given (...) road, (...) I gotta agree - if somebody dies because of a person's actions, whether intended or not, they are still dead. Instead of locking (...) (25 years ago, 26-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | (...) Taking this remark out of the post.. So what you're saying is, someone, not the state, should have the right to decide that a) someone is guilty b) that the crime deserves death c) that he has the right to do this. So essentially, a random (...) (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | (...) As I understand what Larry has been saying, and from my own thinking, I do not believe that the position held by Christopher is a Libertarian position (but I may be wrong). (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | | | Frank Filz wrote in message <382AD2AD.1587@minds...ng.com>... (...) Frank, I think you are right. What Christopher is saying sounds a little anarchist or something, but definitely not Libertarian. -- Have fun! John The Legos you've been dreaming (...) (25 years ago, 12-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Same thing. And just as silly. Jasper (25 years ago, 17-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Jasper, stop trolling. :-) We've discussed what Libertarianism is and isn't in some depth, and you know darn well that it is not anarchy or anything like it. (25 years ago, 17-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | (...) What else would I do on sunday nights? ;) (...) The longer I think about it (and speak to some slightly more hardcore libertarians over on other places), the harder it gets for me to distinguish (hardcore) libertarianism from anarchism. The (...) (25 years ago, 17-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | | (...) (25 years ago, 18-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | Sorry, I wanted to write something, decided not to, and hit the wrong button. Scott S. (...) (25 years ago, 18-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | Sorry, I've been gone for a week. I had to go back and read what I was talking about to address this. (...) It's much easier for you to do what you want with it that way, right? (...) Well, first, it was kind of a flippant remark, and second, no. I (...) (25 years ago, 17-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | (...) It's also good netiquette. (...) If you come home, find someone there, and shoot him, you have shot down an innocent man and therefore deserve to be punished. That is what "innocent until proven guilty" means. (...) The US. Socialist. Please, (...) (25 years ago, 18-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I'm having trouble getting my head into the space you're describing. Let me try a different example to see if I understand your position: Suppose someone is in the process of stabbing you in the chest with the (...) (25 years ago, 18-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | (...) ^^^^ (...) Only is the key word here. In the case I was responding to, there were other options. At least, I read it as such. Jasper (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) Whew! Gosh gosh gosh, I don't know. I'm afraid I'm having difficulty keeping my knee-jerk response separate from my intellectual one. What if, in the earlier example, the rape victim fought off her attacker, and in the process killed him? Who, (...) (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | (...) Who doesn't? (...) Short answer: I dunno. That bit requires much further thought. (...) Yeah, it is. Jasper (25 years ago, 20-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | Message-Id: <slrn83cdbc.bqp.cjc@...s.utk.edu> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) (...) Hunh? Rape ought to be a capital crime anyway, but if a rape victim, as in someone who is at that moment being raped, fights off her rapist and kills him in the (...) (25 years ago, 20-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | (...) No, it oughtn't. That's another discussion, but it does colour my thoughts here. (...) _If_ there is any proof that there was, in fact, a rape goping on. The situation isn't what makes it gray, it's what can be made to look like the same (...) (25 years ago, 20-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | Jasper Janssen wrote in message <383e047e.247832761@...et.com>... (...) attacker, and (...) Please note: my discussion below is not intended to diminish the impact of rape or attempted rape on anyone. Something to ponder in thinking about rape as a (...) (25 years ago, 21-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania... —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | (...) Nope, sorry. That sounds like something you'd hear on The Practice or some other lawyer show. Rape doesn't (normally) occur as a result of miscommunication. I can't speak for everyone, but even the times when I've had what some might call (...) (25 years ago, 21-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | (...) I think I'll drag out an example which by your legal code I suspect I would not be able to drag out because I would be dead... Several years ago, I was driving home from Thanksgiving, and had had a frustrating drive (try losing your alternator (...) (25 years ago, 18-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Simon Robinson
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I'm curious. Just out of interest - don't you have anything in the States equivalent to the UK's AA or RAC? (You pay a fee - anything from about £40 ($60) per year upwards then whenever you break down anywhere, someone will come out to fix it. (...) (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) Wrong. (...) Yikes! (...) In what way was that not bright? I think you behaved correctly - unless you were overly aggressive. (...) Wow, that's pretty dramatic. I've been a clerk at a gas station and we had a button that called the cops in (...) (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | (...) Sorry, I meant that as a joke. I should have included emoticons ;-) (...) Well....I disagree. But he was proven guilty. He proved it to me by raping my wife. Under your world view, what would be the appropriate response to finding yourself in (...) (25 years ago, 18-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | (...) He was proven guilty to you because you saw him. When was it that you said "I don't want to play judge, jury, and executioner"? Oh, right, four messages up. (...) I'd probably start off by grabbing a poker and trying to beat him senseless. (...) (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | (...) If you're going to quote me, please have the decency to do so accurately. I said "I wouldn't say that anyone (or everyone) should have the right to be judge, jury, and executioner." That statement means that I do not support a system of (...) (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Sorry about that. I figured it was a fairly accurate representation of what you said. (...) I agree, absolutely. (...) True. But I'd still like to see at least an attempt made to do it via the legislated channels first - mostly because of the (...) (25 years ago, 20-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Uh, we don't *know* that. Figures please. -John (...) (25 years ago, 20-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | (...) Well, why did you cause such a ruckus at an attendant? If the hose was leaking, and there was a problem, I would have pointed it out in a polite manner, regardless if I had a really bad day or not. I would have stopped the pump, told the (...) (25 years ago, 18-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) Perhaps I should have clarified what I did a little better. I didn't start out to cause a ruckus, but it is hard to be totally polite when you're tired and way past ready to be home and in bed. I think I started by pointing out in a reasonably (...) (25 years ago, 18-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | (...) Pulling a bloody _gun_ on someone because you believe he may trying to cheat you out of a few dollars of gas is _not_ lawsuit material? Sheesh. And I thought you could sue for virtually anything (and epxect to win) in the US system.. ;) (...) (...) (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) I wasn't meaning that wouldn't be lawsuit material in todays world. I was meaning it shouldn't be lawsuit material. At least in todays world of holdups etc. his actions were NOT unreasonable. He also never AIMED the gun at me (just made it (...) (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | <38344C17.6EF@mindspring.com> <FLFAC8.B34@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (...) We don't have very many widely available plans that generous. However, we DO have a number of plans that offer (...) (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) Right. Plans like Larry describes are common as dirt. (...) AAA+ will tow you up to 100 miles and costs about $90 per year. If you drive very much (I do) then it is well worth it. Even new cars can have problems. Chris (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | <38344C17.6EF@mindspring.com> <FLFAC8.B34@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (...) Unfortuanately at that time I didn't have AAA. Now I do. I'm not sure that they would have gotten my car fixed (...) (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | <38344C17.6EF@mindspring.com> <38355C1E.55A6BED2@eclipse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) It was not a kid. No I didn't bother to do anything about it. I doubt I would have been successefull. (...) (25 years ago, 19-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —James Brown
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| | | | (...) Yes. Neither you nor I are capable of judging motive. We don't know why Fred ran over Sam, or why Dave ran over Paul. The only people who know that are Fred and Dave, respectively. All that we can do is judge the action. Actions are (...) (25 years ago, 18-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | (...) Unfortuanately it seems to me that to have a workable society, we have to attempt to judge intent. Without judging intent, either murder is not a crime, and we can't punish anyone for being responsible for someone elses life ending, or there (...) (25 years ago, 18-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —James Brown
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| | | | | (...) are (...) You're making assumptions. What if the penalty for murder was deportation? Or 5 years of community service? No one says it has to be prison for life. Also, there's no reason why there can't be 'state-mandated'(1) circumstances under (...) (25 years ago, 19-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) Ok, I was making an assumption that we want the maximum possible penalty for murder. It still means that we must treat all the above listed people the same as the person whose intent is unjustified murder. (...) Ah, but to do so, you're making (...) (25 years ago, 19-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —James Brown
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| | | | | | (...) Hmm. I don't see that as being intent-driven, but circumstance-driven. It (to me) is a difference between "thou shalt not kill, unless you didn't mean to" and "thou shalt not kill, except under clearly defined circumstances" (...) Ok, to stick (...) (25 years ago, 19-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | (...) Cop is alone when incident happens, cop goes to jail. Cop is with more than one person who swears he saw the crime committed, cop doesn't go to jail. Cop has a partner who swears same for him, which didn't actually happen. Cop doesn't go to (...) (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —James Brown
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| | | | | | (...) I don't get it. If you're intending to debate, please provide reasoning to support your examples. Otherwise, please continue to troll away. James (URL) (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | (...) You said your syustem was fair and provided examples. I provided counterexamples. Happy now? Jasper (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —James Brown
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| | | | | | (...) No, I said it was *more inherently* fair. I still stand by that. (...) Yes. :) James (URL) (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | <FJv3A6.J77@lugnet.com> <380CC30F.6FA2@mindspring.com> <FJv84y.79J@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) It appears to me that if the why behind a cop shooting someone is that a predetermined (...) (25 years ago, 21-Oct-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | (...) Explain how "stepping on the accelerator to speed up" and "driving along, without stopping" are the same. Discuss this further. Jasper (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —James Brown
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| | | | (...) ?? They aren't. How is that relevant? James (URL) (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | (...) ^^^...^^^ (...) ^^^...^^^ (...) So please explain how they should be punished the same, since this is what we were talking about, and there are observable differences in actions. Jasper (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Motive vs Action (was Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...) —James Brown
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| | | | (...) I agree with you. They shouldn't be punished the same, as their actions were different. BUT that isn't what was being talked about. The discussion was about whether judging by action or judging by intent was more fair. From the original (...) (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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