Subject:
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socialism etc. (was: Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:04:34 GMT
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Viewed:
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1327 times
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Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:23:49 GMT, Christopher Weeks
> <clweeks@eclipse.net> wrote:
> > Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
> > > Taking this remark out of the post..
> >
> > It's much easier for you to do what you want with it that way, right?
>
> It's also good netiquette.
Sorry, I meant that as a joke. I should have included emoticons ;-)
> > If I come home and find some guy raping my wife, and I shoot him, I
> > shouldn't be punished. Not at all. Now, it would be reasonable to
> > investigate to make sure that a rape was really in progress and not
> > something else.
>
> If you come home, find someone there, and shoot him, you have shot
> down an innocent man and therefore deserve to be punished. That is
> what "innocent until proven guilty" means.
Well....I disagree. But he was proven guilty. He proved it to me by
raping my wife. Under your world view, what would be the appropriate
response to finding yourself in that situation? Calling the police?
It is my opinion that the courts aren't really in the business of
_proving_ guilt anyway. Not in any rigorous sense. It's more like
suggesting guilt and playing probabilities against one another. All you
have to (usually) do is convince a jury that person x is guilty. When I
have been on juries I have been impressed by two things: the genuine
concern that the members gave to the issue, and their simple mindedness.
I certainly wouldn't want my fate resting in their hands with some
tricky prosecutor guiding them to whatever conclusion he wanted.
I do really wish I could see your stance on this. I don't think I've
encountered someone who would assert that a husband defending his wife
from rape with lethal force should be punished.
> > I'm not really a libertarian. Replacing our socialist system with what
>
> The US. Socialist. Please, you're not that stoopid.
A socialist system (from my understanding of the vernacular) is one in
which social programs exist to equalize or take care of some members of
society who through whatever mechanism don't make as much money as the
norm. My dictionary says that socialism is "a social system in which
the means of producing and distributing goods are owned collectively and
political power is exercised by the whole community." I think we have
to accept that socialism as defined is a fictional extreme opposite
hard-line anarchocapitalism, another fiction. So most systems are
closer to one extreme than the other.
The US seems socialist from the inside to those of us who want it to be
less so and particularly to those who've never lived anywhere else. (My
first two years, spent in Europe, don't count.)
And I think that technically I could argue that the US fits that
definition perfectly but you would have to buy into (or at least accept
for the argument) my attitude toward property rights.
> > Since a system like the one I advocate hasn't been tried, I'm willing to
> > entertain that I might be wrong and that it might not work. If it
> > didn't, I would evaluate what went wrong, and work to correct the deficits.
> > What's unreasonable about any of this?
>
> Because there may not be a way to correct the deficits.
How so? I suppose if the system really FUBARred and destroyed humanity,
that would be uncorrectable. But short of that, the system could be
scrapped and the process of governance started over.
Or do you mean that there's no solution? If that's what you mean, I
might agree. I fear that basically, someone has to eat $h!t so that
others can live better. I don't like that though.
Chris
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Message has 1 Reply:
Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Blue Hopper Car Mania...
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| (...) It's also good netiquette. (...) If you come home, find someone there, and shoot him, you have shot down an innocent man and therefore deserve to be punished. That is what "innocent until proven guilty" means. (...) The US. Socialist. Please, (...) (25 years ago, 18-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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