 | | Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | Simon & All; Based on the conversations I have read regarding these issues (health care, right of, etc.), and Larry's views (Libertarian), I think a lot of you are missing Larry's point as well as my own. If you compare what the founding Fathers (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | <unsnipped because its a commendable effort> Scott Edward Sanburn wrote in message <378DE654.1582693A@a...ng.com>... (...) care, (...) Papers, (...) Yep. Its really out of hand. (...) this (...) scaled (...) Republicans (...) we (...) Similar, yep. (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | John, Thanks for the kind words, John. I usually don't get many in this forum! Oh, believe me, I am sick of some Republicans as well simply because of there non-difference to liberals and Democrats (Decept-o-crats around here) as well. With Social (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | | Scott Edward Sanburn wrote in message <378DF799.9B923A@aeieng.com>... (...) As a conservative, I never got many kind words in any forum! but I am young. (...) there (...) well. (...) incomprehensible (...) 25) (...) Right, since you aren't going to (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | Scott- As a fellow Christian, I am curious as to which ideas of the LP you find unchristian. -John (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) I'll answer for him, leaving it open for him to answer for himself. The LP is religion neutral to the extent that it recognises that individual belief systems vary and should be respected. But it has some thoughts on behaviours that may be (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | Larry, Like I said, the fetal tissue research I did not like. I think that is a BIG one. You might be surprised, Larry, but here is my views on what you said: 1) According to the Bible, Homosexuality is a sin and is detestable to God. (I can verse (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) If a Democratic government decides (ie the will of the people, the *majority*) to sanction hetereo marriages and not homosexual ones, what's wrong with that? I think a case can be made that the traditional nuclear family is a good foundation (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | Whew. Where to start? (...) It is legislating consensual behaviour. And that's wrong. No avoiding it. (...) True. So what? (...) First off, why does government have a monopoly on sanctioning marriages? Aren't they merely a contract between people? (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | (...) The *government* decides which contracts it will recognize. It has nothing to do with how you want to behave in private. (...) What about Nudists who want to walk around naked in public? Or Copulatists (I made it up-- people who want to be (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) What gives the government the right to discriminate among contracts? It is then making a moral judgement that one sort of free will behaviour non rights damaging behaviour is better than another. Please address this fundamental point. (...) No (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) The gov is of the people, by the people and for the people. If that's what the people want, what's wrong with that? By judging their moral judgments, aren't *you* making a moral judgment? (...) Or, if you must walk around naked, don't do it (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Simon Robinson
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) folly of allowing a (...) owner to open a (...) crime, etc.) (...) That one is possibly a bad example - since arguably if you open a brothel in a residential neighbourhood you are affecting the rights of the people who live around there - (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Assuming we step into Libertopia, and you and Ed shack up, the government ought to treat you no differently than anyone else, right? He can inherit your property when you die, etc. What about corporations? Does ACME Insurance company have to (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Free to discriminate however they choose, for any reason or no reason at all. They're not the government. The government, having a de jure monopoly on the initiation of the use of force, is not free to discriminate in any way shape or form. (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | <3790D4A4.AC909B52@voyager.net> <379164EC.11208B2B@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, you're being inconsistent. Let me summarize the points I'm making again rather than interspersing (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) You'll have to pardon my ignorance. I am really trying to understand what you are saying. (...) Ok, I buy that. Who, would you say, determines or is qualified to determine which is superior? (...) I am confused. Are we talking about moral (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jeremy H. Sproat
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) I've been following this phenomenon for a while: (URL) interesting to note that this was noticed back in February, as well: (URL) suspect the newsserver isn't handling the references for extremely large threads properly. Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:51:36 GMT, Sproaticus <jsproat@io.com> wrote: References: <376D7261.634B7347@bigfoot.com> <3777AA6F.E773F137@voyager.net> <3777CD7E.FE00DE15@a...state.edu> <3777F1EB.550FEE59@c...souri.edu> <37782AF6.A05C00BC@a...state.edu> (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) It makes an actual NNTP connection (no voodoo) and doesn't limit the length of the References field via the HTML form or anything like that. (...) I didn't modify any of those parts of CNews. --Todd (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Hm. (...) Odd. Maybe it's just an interaction between CNews and Netscape, then - the servers at my ISP run Diablo on linux and <something> on Solaris, respectively. Jasper (25 years ago, 2-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Hey Jasper, you there? ( Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Is something up with dynip.com?? I am getting mail bounces from both my mail accounts trying to mail Jasper there. Jasper Janssen wrote: <usual babble> (25 years ago, 2-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | | On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 01:38:04 GMT, Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in .debate: (...) B (...) This is an interesting References: manglement.. is it a Mozilla problem, or did Todd's newsserver screw up somewhere? Interesting it is mainly (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | <3792817C.F236D232@voyager.net> <3792A1E5.40255C5D@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I am. You are. In fact I give criteria below. This turns on innate goodness vs. evil, but one germane (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | (...) {:-0 Well excuuuse me;-) Didn't know if you were simply toting the party line, or if what you are debating was *yours* (...) If you are referring to zoning laws, then yes. Perhaps it is immoral and flawed, but the obvious benefit outweighs (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | (...) You know, every time I see this world I get bad associations. It reminds me of dystopia (regardless of my actual opinion of the described world). Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Simon Robinson
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| | | | | | (...) OK - I'll bite on that one. I would agree that the traditional nuclear family as a good foundation on which to build a stable society. However, I can't see any reason why a family with - say - two gay men at its head shouldn't be equally good, (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | | (...) First, explain to me how 2 gay men "create" a family. Not possible. Unless, you say, if they adopt. In my perfect world, there would be no children for such "couples" to adopt, because orphaned children would be care for by immediate family (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Simon Robinson
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| | | | | | (...) you (...) hetereo (...) that's (...) I believe I asked you to justify what could be inferior about 2 gay men as the head of a family unit, not simply to restate the fact that you believed that :) (...) I can't see any difference - as long as (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | | (...) Ok, fine. I think a child deserves to have a mother and a father. Doesn't matter how much a man can care for a child, a woman does it differently, in a way a man can't. And vice versa. I guess I never analyzed the reason very closely, it just (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Simon Robinson
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| | | | | | | | (...) matter (...) man (...) just (...) Hmmm - I have to admit to being impressed there. That's about the first time I can ever remember seeing someone write down a reason for gay couples not adopting which sounds vaguely plausible, thought out, and (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:14:52 GMT, "Simon Robinson" <simon@simonrobinson.com> wrote: <snip child deserves a mother and a father> (...) You've never heard _that_ old tired argument before? I've been beaten around the head with it so often it's getting (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | You prolly think that men and women are equal, too. (...) Where is it written that all gays are implicitly wonderful, loving parents? Talk about stereotypes. -John "extinguishing the flames of stupidity" Neal (...) (25 years ago, 24-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Where did I talk about anything but stereotypes? *muttermustreallybel...gegrumble* Jasper (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Apparently Lugnuts aren't easily duped into such thinly veiled trolls <except me> Me: FISHED IN, FISHED IN;-) -John (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Terry Keller
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| | | | | | (...) A joke from the comedy movie "Airplane!"(1). Something along the lines of "Surely, you must be joking!" "No, I'm not. And stop calling me Shirley!" Not exactly what is said, but that is the idea. -- Terry K -- 1. If you haven't seen it, it is (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Simon Robinson
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| | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Terry Keller writes: Got you now. Yes I have seen Airplane twice and I recall the joke now. Quite a good film. Simon (URL) (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) I'm not speaking for Larry here, but some Libertarians agree that the government is big and needs to be scaled back, but don't believe that the original concept of our government is without flaw. I would be gladdened by what you suggest, but (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | Chris, (...) I would disagree with your definition of democracy in terms of minorities being pushed around, but I think that everyone should be treated the same in terms of law, etc. I don't think anyone deserves special treatment for anything. OK, (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) In what way do you disagree with my take on democracy? It's the rule of the people - by vote - so as long as 51% of the people who vote think it's OK to kill me, then politically (if not morally) it is. Right? Wrong? Libertopia would be an (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | An unlimited democracy with no bounds as to what the majority can decide is indeed flawed. Further, it's unworkable beyond a certain size, and leads to factionalism. A constitutionally limited representative or republican democracy is much better. (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) I think environmental protection and animal "rights" are harder than defense to privatize. In fact, I think defense is relatively easy. Probably easier than roads. (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | (...) In one sense, yes. In another, hell no. Defense _cannot_ be privatised, _especially_ not in Liberdystopia. The then-privatised DoD would not only no longer be under direct government control, but it would have to compete with others. I for one (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | | | (...) Microsoft called. They want to know where to submit their proposal for MS-DoD. Steve "I'd go Canada if Bill G. got control" Bliss (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | (...) It's a simplified definition, I think you are talking about direct democracy, I was talking more of a constitutional democracy, where the people have certain rights (a.k.a. Bill of Rights) and protection from being murdered and so forth. A (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) It's unfortunate that the labels have become so skewed. I am a liberal because I believe in liberty. I am not a conservative because I think the present system needs to be changed. Yet if I claim to be liberal it means I support income (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | | To all (Larry & Chris and others); Ugh. Let me see if I can clear up what appears to be people's confusion about me. (...) In today's terms, yes. I think the system needs to be changed, and I don't support income transfer. (...) I would say I am (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Simon Robinson
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I'd go along with that. I'm not too happy with the idea of positive discrimination. Occasionally it can bring about benefits if it's applied for a limited period of time - eg. in order to make sure that there are enough members of some group (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | Scott: The fact that you and I have to explain what we mean by L and C merely proves the point (which we are in violent agreement on, by the way) that definitions have been skewed all out of recognizability. I have only inconsequentially minor (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) Like David Koresh? (...) I think that Mob Rule is where we are now...oh yeah, that is a representative democracy. (...) Fetal testing or murder? Both, I guess. (...) I do not support those things either. But here's how I view the words (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | (...) I'm totally lost. Could you clarify, Chris? (I should have gotten more sleep last night!) (...) Isn't a mob rule like 500 people outside a building, for example, demanding a hanging? (...) Most corporations and government agencies do illegal (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | (...) You were assuring me that this wonderful democracy works to protect the lives of the citizens, I think. You said "I was talking more of a constitutional democracy, where the people have certain rights (a.k.a. Bill of Rights) and protection (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) So, something is better than nothing. Yes, but I'm having a tough time figuring a scenario where no hetereo couples would be available. (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | <37936594.15C0AA85@c...souri.edu> <379414EC.A40DFA0F@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Well, I know there are a bunch of kids being raised as wards of the state instead of with loving (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | (...) Republican == Democrat Don't ever forget that. "A difference which makes no difference is no difference." Steve (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | Amen. You don't have to guess to hard, I am different. Scott Sanburn (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | (...) So what do you want? Total anarchy? That's minorities pushing majorities around again. Being pushed around is a natural state of being for humankind. Maybe one day we'll grow out of it, but it'll be another few centuries at the _very_ least. (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | Jasper Janssen wrote: <someone else said democracy is the majority pushing minorities around> (...) Oh, I get it. The choices according to you are: - the majority thumps the minority over the head with a stick - everyone with a stick tries to thump (...) (25 years ago, 24-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —John Neal
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| | | | | Larry Pieniazek wrote: 1 - reminds me of an old joke. (...) I'll bite. -John (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Q: "What's the difference between Communism and Fascism?" A: "Under Fascism, Man exploits Man. Under Communism, it's the other way round." (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | (...) And under Capitalism it's the first way round again. Jasper (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | (...) Larry, As a father, how do you avoid the use of force? (pushing kids around) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?] —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | (...) So call me a pessimist. (...) Ad hominem? Sorry, but "Libertopia (might equal) dystopia (as easily as) utopia" is hardly an ad hominem. It is directed at the word, not the man. Anyway, that aside.. I haven't yet seen you, or any other (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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