 | | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) I agree with that. But hey, the Saudia Princes are a freedom loving bunch of guys; they need your support. ;) Scott A (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Don’t you just hate the pinko US media?
|
|
An interesting analysis of “patriotic” reporting the USA: Analysis: US media under fire (URL) like the retired Nato commander General Wesley Clark on CNN, argued that the Pentagon should have sent more troops to the Gulf, and perhaps waited longer (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | ...so much for winning hearts and minds. [was Re: Outrageous ...]
|
|
(...) The evidence suggests that your servicemen are not even look at flags: 'The Yank opened up. He had absolutely no regard for human life.' (URL) Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, were (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) You asserted that "[japan's intentions] were that the war was going to continue to the absolute bitter end". What has that to do with US obligation to pause? (...) This may be your opinion, but again has nothing to do with your original (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Quite the contrary - see your quoted summary at the bottom. Japan had rejected the conditions of surrender (to whit, none) and the U.S. was under no obligation to pause in the war. In fact, it would have been a betrayal of the American people (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) This doesn't sound to me like a country whose intentions "were that the war was going to continue to the absolute bitter end" and Truman had full knowledge of it. --- begin quote --- July 1945 - Japan's peace messages Still, the messages from (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) 1: I read the site before I posted, and for that matter I read the site the previous time this came up. You may wish to actually quote the exact passage that you are refering to, since what I read would seem to support me. 2: Unsupported (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | serious vulnerability present. all doomed. over.
|
|
This was funny, coming from a well respected moderated vulnerability list :) FUT to off-topic.debate, if you want to talk about the contents :) ----- Forwarded message from "Security Experts, Liability Limited" <throwaway@dione.ids.pl> ----- (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) I happen to stuble upon this message and while commenting on this war is normally out of my personal fasion, i would like to point out my observations on the anti-war movement. As Scott divided the protestors into groups, so will I: 1. Those (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) Hi Selçuk! I'm glad to see you posting-- over the past few weeks I would sometimes think how it would be good to have someone from Turkey post with their take on this whole mess, and of course you were the obvious person I thought of! It's (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Larry and Pedro, You both touch a chord, I desperately want this war to be done with. I married, and am raising children in a Quaker home, and I am comfortable with pacifism. Richard Nixon was a Quaker. I am a pragmatist. I want a quick ending (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Wrong. (URL) (which were that the war was going to (...) Wrong again. (...) Ah at last something approaching reality! 1 outta 3 aint bad. (...) Whatever you reckon. ROSCO (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Oh no! Not the "should we have dropped 'the bomb'" debate again?!? No, despite lame attempts at recent revisionism, we had no way to know what Japan intended beyond its action (which were that the war was going to continue to the absolute (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
Immediately before WW II, was Japan a straight out monarchy, or a constitutional monarchy? I don't think I have ever looked into that precise aspect of world history. If it were a flat out monarchy, then I'd agree that we have at least one or two (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) I'd say we pretty close to literally bombed Germany into submission also... (...) Whatever the truth is here, it certainly is a case of warring them into submission, and then going in and setting the groundwork for a respected, productive (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
Hi guys, a long time passed since I last posted anything here but be sure that I'm still lurking around. (...) Actually I still can't believe how "The Great American Startegy Makers" based their plans on such a stupid idea. I don't like my (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) And even worse, this action sets a precedent for the above countries (along with India, Pakistan, etc, etc) to invade other countries (including US, UK, Australia, etc, etc), without international sanction, because they perceive a potential (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Maybe time to have it again then 8?) (URL) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Deja vu all over again. IIRC we had this debate already. I forget what the outcome was... but I don't recall that statement coming out a clear winner. (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) However, recent evidence suggests that the emporer was about to surrender, and that you yanks dropped the bomb to show the world your power. (...) Agreed Dave K (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Touche! Can we send them David Hasslehoff and call us even? Dave! (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) I assume that you are discounting the two blaringly obvious examples for a reason? Germany? Japan? The latter we did literally bomb into submission (WoMD, to add some irony). (...) That we have committed this far (foolishly) it would seem a (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) I think it depends on how you spin the terms democracy and ideal. If you spin them the way I would, I'd say that Germany after WWII is an example. But they had sort of a democracy before. And I don't know about Japanese civics (except the (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) An American defeat is not an option (1); but the victory may be Pyrrhic if this thing goes on through the Summer and/or with an ever increasing rate of casualties - in many ways, that could be even worse than a defeat. :-/ Pedro (1) - Really, (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) We got Dezi Arnez out of the deal, can't be all bad... (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) One (somewhat) recent success story of US inteventionist warfare was the spectacular liberation of Cuba from the evil clutches of Spain. And look how well that turned out! Dave! (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Agreed (...) <snip> (...) I'd like to discuss where Saddam would be if the 'willing' stopped their war now. He's been saying "God is on our side!" and if the willing stop, SH will be, well, I don't know where he'll be, but I feel that it won't (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Can you cite even one example of where this has happened before? Where else have we bombed people into accepting democracy? True, the absence of precedence doesn't make the occurrence of such a democracy impossible, but I would suggest the (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) I'm not sure that's true. I think it's more of wanting to take the best next step from wherever you find yourself. Before the violence commenced, Larry thought the best step was not to start the violence. Now, given that we're going to be (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) Well, it is a simplification of things -- but the pro-peace movement also needs its own soundbite. "No blood for oil!" has been a kind of code for larger issues, obviously. Ignoring ethical concerns for now, longer-term I can't see the (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) That's just being a pro-war accomplice after the fact. Sorry, no previous moral opposition gives anyone moral safety to now just go ahead and support this great evil. No one would delight in american defeat -- that's madness. I presume defeat (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Along those lines: (URL) opposed getting into this war but now that we're in it I want to win. Unlike some here, I suspect, who would delight in an American defeat. (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) Maybe I'm getting my timeframe messed up, though I understand that bin Laden's particular beef is with the continued US military presence in the region (apparently greatly increased following Gulf War I). Dave! (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes: <snip> (...) Watching CNN all weekend, except Sunday when I watched PBS, and the other political shows on NBC and CBS... Constant theme now--"We tried the fast approach, and were hopeing that (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) I can’t find a cite , but I thought the US bases dated back to WW2? Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | In the name of freedom
|
|
Iraq - In the shadow of war: backlash against human rights (URL) the military action by the USA, UK and their allies began in Iraq on 20 March, a backlash against certain human rights has been witnessed around the world. These include: * attacks on (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) I'm just not familiar enough with Blair to say, beyond I suspect he likes the idea of acting tough. Bush probably has several agendas, though the weight of each is unknown: Inherited hostility: The enemy of my father is my enemy. Though Bush (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) Interestingly, there *IS* an undeniable link between Saddam and the actions and al-Qaeda; bin Laden has explicitly stated that his motives derive in part from his disgust at the overbearing presence of US military in Saudia Arabia. Of course, (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) Don't you just love our freedom loving allies? Turkey: End sexual torture against women in custody! (URL) A (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) Even that funded by Pakistan? (...) Me too. I'd love to hear what he has to say. Likewise for SH. Do you think Bush would want us to hear about their version of events? (...) Why just "to the United States and her citizens"? (...) Evidence? (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
