Subject:
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what makes a legend?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.lego.direct
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Date:
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Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:00:48 GMT
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We're having a debate here in the ABS-paved halls of LEGO Direct that I'd
like to throw open to the community.
The topic is: what makes a LEGO Legend a legend? Or, more precisely, if we
cannot bring back a set precisely as it was (or pretty darn close), can it
still qualify as a Legend?
In my June announcement of the LEGO Legends series, I wrote that "LEGO
Legends are reissues of landmark LEGO sets -- perhaps the first set in a
particular playtheme, or a set widely acknowledged as a superlative building
experience, or perhaps simply a much beloved set."
The first three offerings in the series -- the Guarded Inn, Metroliner, and
Club Car not only meet the above criteria, but are as faithful to their
originals as we could possibly make them. Setting aside boneheaded mistakes
like (doh!) putting an Indian horse in a medieval castle set (unless, of
course, you were going for the "Tudor Teepee" look), these three sets vary
only slightly from their honored ancestors -- minor differences, such as
"ventilated" minifig heads instead of the original solid ones are all that
set them apart.
Now we are considering where we go next with this line. We've gone back to
the early 90s with the Metroliner and Club Car, and to 1986 for the Guarded
Inn. Now we'd like to dial the Wayback Machine a bit further back... and
here's where we start to run into "issues."
Without revealing what specific sets we have under consideration (hey, we're
trying to maintain an aura of mystery here!), the dilemma is this: in
general, the farther back we go, the more compromises are necessary in order
to make the set. For example: the old metal-axle wheelsets? Forget it.
They're not coming back; we're stuck with the wheels we've got now.
Baseplates and road plates have changed, too -- on some of the road plates,
we use one fewer stud now (8 instead of 9) between the roads and the edge of
the plate -- which could affect the "look" and arrangement of sets using
those plates (e.g. buildings could be closer together than in the
originals). And the list goes on: unavailability of certain decorated
elements (though we could use stickers); the need to use slightly different
elements to replace an element for which we no longer have the mold; and so
on. You see the problems...
We can bring back almost any set (but before you ask: the Airport Shuttle is
not in the cards -- there's no way to get the motors and track -- and
believe me, I'm as disappointed about this as you are). The thing is, we
can't bring them all back *exactly* as they once were. There are some sets
which are comprised largely of basic elements, with a few rarer bits thrown
in. And there are others which require compromise. And then there are those
which require a whole lot of compromise.
So here's my question for you all: how much compromise can you live with?
Should we just cross any older Town set off the consideration list because
we can't use the metal-axle wheelsets? Are stickers ok? How many changes are
allowed before it's not a Legend anymore? Where do you -- where should we --
draw the line? Is the Legend in the spirit of the overall set or in the details?
Next year, we hope to give you at least one opportunity to vote -- from a
short list of candidates -- for the Legend set you'd like to see us make.
When we post the contenders we'll be specific about any changes we'll have
to make from the original. But it would be incredibly helpful to us now to
know how far we can go with those changes.
We've received great input from the community here, and from many of you
individually, on the direction we're taking with products coming from LEGO
Direct. We need some of that input now. Please help us make next year's
Legends everything you want them to be.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Play Well!
-- Brad
Brad Justus
Senior Vice President, LEGO Direct
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Message has 55 Replies:
 | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) <snip> (...) <snip> (...) <snip> (...) I think the best way to illustrate your point here, Brad, is to point out the 1974 helicopter instructions on page 16 of the September-October 2001Mania Magazine. I personally thought that this "re-do" of (...) (23 years ago, 19-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) Thank you! I am always glad to help any way I can! (...) (Snipped) (...) Yes... But don't tell me you destroyed the molds! :-( (...) Ok, here goes my opinion: As for metal-axle wheelsets, the replacement is ok (old axles might get rusty... I (...) (23 years ago, 19-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| Hi Brad, I think Matthew has pretty much got it bang on here - I agree that the helicopter instructions were great in the Mania magazine. The new version of the model had the same spirit as the original one, even though some of the bricks were (...) (23 years ago, 19-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| A "Legend" is in the eye of the beholder. That being said, here are my beholdings: There are two types of "Legends". One, a set I owned that was great to build, great to look at, great to play with. The second type (the more important one), is a set (...) (23 years ago, 19-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) I would be more than happy to accept changes in a set if it ment that we would be able to see classics. Even such major replacements as changing a train set to run on 9v track would be more than acceptable, if it ment we were able to purchase (...) (23 years ago, 19-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) Hi Brad, in my own personal thoughts, to me, a LEGO Legend is a typical classic set with (this does all depend on certain ways of looking at it, mind you) maybe pieces that are hard to get in any other set, such as the Guarded in does come (...) (23 years ago, 19-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| In lugnet.lego.direct, Brad Justus writes: snip (...) snip (...) Well, here's my 2¢: Because I really really like older Lego sets compared to newer sets, I personally would be willing to allow MANY changes to take place. If you were to release one (...) (23 years ago, 19-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: What makes a legend?
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| (...) Some specifics would help… If your alluding specifically to Space sets predating 1980 then we could easily determine which particular sets would likely be chosen for the 2002 up-coming Legends line. With this finite list and our resources we (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| "Brad Justus" <legodirect@lego.com> wrote in message news:GLH3tC.Iw@lugnet.com... (...) [ ... snipped ... ] (...) and (...) mistakes (...) [ ... snipped ... ] (...) I am still thinking about how to answer all of your questions but in the meantime, (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) My initial thought is "do not cross out an entire group. You may find some sets are more readily reproduced than others". Having said that, I have no problem living with stickers for printed pieces. I also have no problem with substituting (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) I can definitely live without the metal-axle wheels - others may not. But its the design of the buildings of those sets that is great and why they should be reissued. The loss of a metal axle is not a show stopper for me. (...) In reality, no. (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| In lugnet.lego.direct, Brad Justus writes: Other people have posted some great ideas but one I wanted to toss out is to use the Lugnet set database as one data source. A large number of people have already voted on what sets they like there, and I (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| Brad & All, (...) Thanks for the honor, sir! : ) (...) Hmm... it really depends on the set. Some sets, which are pretty easy to replicate in terms of parts selections, a few parts either changed or modified is fine.I think most of the LUGNET (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) Might some consideration also be given to bringing back some accessory sets to complement the "Legend sets" already released and the others which are to come? I am thinking about the highly desired and "Fabled" if not "Legendary" Cypress Tree (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) This would depend on the individual set in question. I suspect you'd have a hard time reproducing the crater plates and landing-pad plates from old space sets, but even without any plates, or with plain grey plates, I think a Galaxy Explorer (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) I hope the Wayback Machine has settings for the 70's. :) (...) Are you referring to the 2x4 black bricks with the 'plug in' wheels that could go on the long or short sides? Or are you meaning the 2x2 black bricks with the preinstalled smaller (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| How about a book of legends? Reprint the old contruction manuals from sets in the 60s - 80s in one large book. Sets that you cannot/will not reissue, so that the book won't compete with your own products. The plans on Brickshelf are generally not (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) Personally, I don't know how to answer the above questions--it hurts my head. But I am going to stir up the sentiment that we do NOT need Legends or any other Lego set to be re-released. What has already been done as far as reissuing sets (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) SNIP! (...) First off, I would like to tell you how great it is that Lego is listening to it's audience and taking steps to bring back and recreate some of the sets that we relish and desire. Thanks for all that you have done! How many toy (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| "Brad Justus" <legodirect@lego.com> wrote in message news:GLH3tC.Iw@lugnet.com... [snip] (...) we're (...) order (...) plates, (...) of (...) different (...) so (...) How does not having the mold for an element affect it's reproducibility? I would (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| There's a load of reactions here already, so I'll keep it short. I't very hard to give an overall verdict on replacement parts. I mean, almost invisible changes, like the minifig heads, would be hard to object to. In fact, even the 2x4 basic brick (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| Two things that make a classic for me: a good design and interesting, useful, versatile pieces. I don't care about the wheels as long as the new design looks good, but a club car without the cool windows isn't a club car. Had you not been able to (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| First off, let me thank you for going out to the lego community like this and actually asking us what we think about this. It shows us you are aware of us as a relevant source for opinions. My other great hobby apart from lego is that I am a huge (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| Well, I would think it to be a good idea if LEGO released accessory kits to go along with the legend theme. The voting thing is okay, but I'm looking for a re-release of a classic space set and more castle sets! Anyways, keep it up! You're doing a (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) You have defined a LEGO Legend very well, any set that became a "landmark" is a good candidate, either because it was the first set in a theme or because it was a market success. I guess it depends on how dramatic the difference between the (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| Brad Justus wrote in message ... (...) <snip> (...) are (...) we -- (...) details? I agree with those who have written that the spirit of the set is more important than the details of individual parts. Specifically, I don't care about the metal (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| Just my opinion, but, whatever you do, at least in the case of town, make sure it's a unique set. Not another police or fire station. Try to think Main Street/6390 (<<--My #1), Public Works Centre/6383, Holiday Airport/6395, Weekend Home/6370, etc. (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| In regards to your question, I feel certain changes such as wheels and stickers are totally accaptable, as long as the reason for the change is explained before hand. The only changes I would be against are changes in the colour of pieces (I (...) (23 years ago, 20-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) I would have to say that what made Lego such a great toy in the 80s was the level of sophistication in the design. That sophistication is why you have a huge adult follow up these days. This is how kids play: the get the toy, examine it (...) (23 years ago, 21-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) <snip> A great question. To me, it has a lot less to do with nostalgia, and more with set complexity. I do understand the current catch-22 that TLC is facing these days with its juniorization policy of sets (feeling the need to hook younger (...) (23 years ago, 21-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) No more metal axle wheel sets? NOT A PROBLEM!!! Sticker versus decorated items--this seems to be an issue. As someone with a manufacturing engineering degree (and a brother who's in the printing business), and the fact that you can't produce (...) (23 years ago, 21-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) Changes that keep the spirit and character of a set 'alive' are fine (i.e. the wheels and the hollow studs on the minifig head). To use another's example, making a #375/6075 Yellow Castle with the various wall bricks are not. I'd have to go (...) (23 years ago, 21-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) Oh my, such a simple question, but with so many complicated ways to answer! This is like asking 'what makes a good wine', or 'what makes a good movie'... Good pieces, sure - but not everyone buys a set just for the pieces. Some people buys (...) (23 years ago, 21-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) Brad, It would appear that the LUGNET community (as would be expected) has come through with dozens of responses to your questions. I'm sure it goes without saying, but I do hope you folks realize how fortunate you are to have this much free (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct) !
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| First, let me say that although some of my comments regarding 10000, 10001, & 10002 may have, in the past, sounded a little nit-picky, LEGENDS RULES in every way! Thank you! I’ve posted some of my nit-picky comments to the forum so that the (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| In lugnet.lego.direct, Brad Justus writes: First let me answer your very first question out of the subject line: "what makes a legend?" In my eyes a legend has at least one out of the following two characteristic qualities: - it is standing far over (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| The Legend idea was thrilling to me in June. I've since had some time to realize how bad it is, though. Problems: 1) Your mail-order-only / internet market is a bunch of older people like me who already have five Galaxy Explorers and thirteen Yellow (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) As a member of the Lego-buying community, can I just say how fantastic what you're doing is. I'll admit I haven't bought a Guarded Inn (yet)*, and I doubt I'll fork out for a Metroliner (my trains are all British steam-era customs), but just (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| Like most people here, I would prefer printed bricks instead of stickers. But if you are going to print on bricks, is it possible to do so a bit more precisely than on some of the Guarded Inn sets, which apparently had some printing problems on the (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| Brad, I'm willing to accept any changes you have to make in order to get some of the old castle sets (including 1592 Castle Town Square or the Weetabix Castle). As for things like metel axles or ventless minifig heads... I have plenty. Paul (...) (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) Brad: IMO, a Legend is a "best-of" in terms of quality, set design, elements selection, utility, and attractiveness. I personally don't mind if different non-juniorized parts have to be substituted, but it is very important to me that any (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| In lugnet.lego.direct, Brad Justus writes: Hi Brad (...) For starters, I think a lot of what makes a legend a legend depends on the age of the person being asked. I for one was born in '68, and started with LEGO when I was about 6-8 years old. For (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| I agree with the majority here in saying that as long as the "tone" and "feel" of the sets remains intact (without juniorization), then changing out of parts is fine. One thing though: please no stickers. They are just cheap and as has been (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| While I dmit to being a bit disturbed at the idea of substitutions being made (wheels, stickers or otherwise) I understand the reasons why it may have to be done. As for what set(s) should be done as Legends, I would like to suggest that some of the (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) <big snip> As is evident by the 60+ messages in this thread already (in just a few days) I would say that this topic is very broad and almost every person in this forum has an opinion. That being said, I apologize now if I am about to simply (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| <snipped all of it> Brad, See the above posts and one thing is clear, we want more legend sets. :-) As far as modifying design due to current limitations, use you common sense. We do not want a Galaxy Explorer without wings. ;-) But we do understand (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| After reading the other comments from other members, I think I actually have changed my mind a bit (I offered my comment on Friday, when you first posted your message, now I've had a weekend to think about it). The more I think about a Legend, I (...) (23 years ago, 22-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) To me the characteristics of a Legendary set would include excellent design (a graceful and ingenius configuration of elements), unique elements (elements rare in design), and useful elements (elements that probably belong in accessory packs). (...) (23 years ago, 23-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) A legend is a model that is unique in design (for the time period) and beggs to be expanded, have a space port, castle village or town built around it. It is one that starts a whole line of story and truly expresses originality. If the spirit (...) (23 years ago, 23-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| Hello! (I didn't read all of the answers given to Brad's posting, so it might be that some of my points have been brought by others already.) What makes a legend? First of all: The "legend" is the OLD set, the ORIGINAL. The new released sets are (...) (23 years ago, 23-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) From my little corner one of two things can make a legend: 1) The original 'model' was creative, imaginative and showed off what you can do with the parts included (Guraded Inn, Redbeard Runner) 2) The original set contained enough variety and (...) (23 years ago, 24-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) It has taken me five severe revisions to answer this very difficult question. Each time I allowed myself to go off topic into the realm of what I wanted to see, and what I thought LEGO could do to improve their company, rather than answer the (...) (23 years ago, 25-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) If you want to go "way back" to a set that's mostly built of generic bricks, I'd highly suggest 565 Moon Landing. Surely there would be compromises. As far as stickers go, this set had stickers anyway, so substituting a few more printed (...) (23 years ago, 26-Oct-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
| | | Re: what makes a legend?
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| (...) What makes a legend a legend is the same as asking what makes a favorite a favorite. Elements that answer this question have been posted: (...) level of sophistication in the design. That sophistication is why you have a huge adult follow up (...) (23 years ago, 1-Nov-01, to lugnet.lego.direct)
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