 | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | (...) Agreed, yet the outcome is the same. (...) Yet, as far as I understand it, the Ontological Argument is more about the nature of existence not whether the thing exists in the first place. As such, the existence of the thing is already a (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | Plowed ground alert. Let's see if I can manage to just say ONE post on this and then let it go. or if anyone else can either... hahaha... (1) (...) Stipulating that there is a connection for the sake of argument (there isn't): Well, since no one (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | (...) To be short, ditto. I find it ends a conversation (that I don't want to plow through YET AGAIN) quicker if I just say I am an atheist, rather than saying I am agnostic. I have had JWs come to my door, I tell them that while I have read The (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | (...) Tom/Larry or whomever... (Too busy to read what's already been discussed... I just caught your post on the news main page... so I'm sure you'll let me know if I've missed something... :-) ) No offense intended, but my philosophy courses taught (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | | (...) Actually, I think it fits because, as in Larry's case, he doesn't WANT to know God as he perceives Him to be. The problem is his perception of what God is. And yet, in my opinion, the blame for so many who are utterly repulsed by the thought (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) No offense back, but I believe that you were failed by your education. (...) The idea that one philosophy is more defensible than another does not negate those who adhere to the less defensible philosophy. (...) And a Christian says there is a (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | (...) Many of us could also say: "Ugh, The LP debate again...bigger sigh! (...) My views are no less valid than yours, I do not seek to ridicule or stifle yours - or limit them to "ONE" reply. Unlike you, I have no ghosts. (...) Admittedly. Yet, the (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | (...) Myself among them, believe me. (...) I blew it already.. OK, *TWO* replies, that's it. :-) Really! I'm sorry if you think I'm ridiculing you. I do find christianity a bit laughable, though. Along with animism, chiropractic, and socialism to (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | (...) And yet it is kinda like sharpening swords and having at it, isn't it. Must be a guy thing. (...) And again, that's fine with me. I know what I believe, and more importantly, I know why. Believe me, I'm a huge skeptic, I question myself and (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | (...) Ummmmmmm, what are you defining as a "major event"? Greek major events excluded? Roman? Chinese? Indian? Japanese? Egyptian? Sumerian? Assyrian? Mayan? Viking? Scientific? That's not to say that many major events weren't linked in some (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | | | (...) Again, that's why I said "nearly". I was referring mainly to such things as the World Wars, the Reformation, the Renaissance, the Dark Ages, Israel's significance to everything Middle Eastern (both because of location and direct involvement), (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Low
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Alternate history is an obviously speculative exercise, but I don't see what any of this (except the inquisition and crusades) has to do with Judaeo-Christianity per se. Given that we can't really separate religion from culture and history, (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) My original point was that "nearly" every "significant" event in history was in some way, big or small, effected or affected by Judaism or Christianity in response to LarryP statement that Christianity is "unsupportable" and that God is (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) I think it is obvious that christianity (and of course any other religion like Islam and the others) are "supportable", and again all of them has great influences on the known history, but this does not mean they are "reasonable" or (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Oh, lets see if we can find one or two that had global significance. Paper. No paper, no easy to carry bibles. Gunpowder. No gunpowder, no forcing the natives to read the bibles you made them trade their land away for. How'd I do? ++Lar (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I was refering to more geopolitical events which had global impact on... well...the globe. I realize that they have made tremendous contributions - like substituting dog meat for pork and cat meat for chicken - just kidding, lighten up, I love (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | (...) Rarely, on the above list, which is why I dispute your claim. (...) Kind of a eurocentric viewpoint to claim nearly every major event. See below. (...) Defining Egypt as solely a place that the Jews passed through is belittling its (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) That's an interesting point, and quite similar to the "is libertarianism on the rise?" discussion. If someone adheres to good ideals which are in step with Christianity, but that person doesn't believe in God, are his ideals still good? I (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | (...) Well, depends on what Christian you ask, probably... some might say that because they weren't derived from God, they *couldn't* be absoloutely pure, and therefore are wrong. Another might argue that yes, the ideals are good, but because that (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | (...) I came up with a similiar kind of conclusion (well, question) when I was going to parochial school in second grade. Was it good because God says so, or is there something inherently good independent of God? (...) And this is the same question (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | (...) Again, great points. Romans chapter 2 deals with this in depth, for anyone who cares to look it up. For the record, as to atrocities, it is my opinion that any action which is diametrically opposed to the stated principles of a system cannot (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | | | (...) For the record, the point was any religion can provide "high moral grounds" for the people or not. You said several times without religion, we could not have a social life, since there would be no ethics, since there wouldn't be a supreme (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | (...) You're right, religion in a generic sense will not necessarily bring out the best in people. I agree that it quite often brings out the worst. I am a bigger critic than anyone on the problems in Christendom, I could go on for hours about the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) You're completely correct, and it seems to me that such people often pick and choose which elements of The Bible the wish to practice, ignoring those passages they find inconvenient to their cause. (...) And that's the big problem--that the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | | | (...) So, so.. But I'm not talking about invalidating any "belief", I'm just talking about invalidating a "belief system" as a "system to bring high moral grounds for society". If any system can open to be abused and can be used by a person/group (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | (...) (Snip) (...) Minor philospohical point I had to add.... While everyone is entitled to their beliefs, don't even begin to think that that means all beliefs are equal. Sincerity in one's beliefs doesn't make them correct. I may believe that I (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | (...) No, you're right. Ultimately there is only one truth, obviously. But, in a forum where such ideas are presented, predicated upon freedom of speech, I have the same right to present mine as anyone else does. I also restate the fact that (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) This isn't really minor. It's kind of the crux of the past three thousand years of philosophy. (...) Woa! What does that mean? I'm not sure that such an assertion is obvious at all. Truths are multilayered, and most things are true/real in (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | (...) The same logic would also apply, however, if I asserted that I have supreme power and choose absolutely not to act on it; does someone's inability to disprove my power make it so? The bottom line, for me, is that if logic could prove the (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | (...) It's ok if you don't know of any. Consider this... The funny thing about Biblical Prophecies is that they tend to be centered around *major* events. As such, there haven't been any really *major* Biblical / Spiritual events in the past (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | (...) Understood. However, surely you must realize that these two prophecies are sufficiently nebulous to curtail their predictive value? I'm not trying to sound petty, but to claim that Israel would return to its homeland at some time to be named (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | (...) either. (...) Ha! It's very easy to look back on something and say that it was easy to predict. Hindsight is always 20-20 eh? You asked for 2 prophecies that the Bible has made and I've given you them... Ok, so you don't like them, that (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | (...) Agreed--they're not made false by my dislike, but neither are they made true by your assertion of them. In order for any prophesy to be given any value, it must have some specificity, otherwise you can simply say "well, it didn't happen yet, (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | (...) Both? (...) I can offer this (in response to your 'prediction' - er, prophecy, or whatever) Remember, please, my point about prophecies surrounding major Biblical events. The last event was the birth/life/death of Jesus. About that there were (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) As reported by the very document that predicted them. Further, while I recognize that you can drum up historical evidence to support these predictions, I could parry that by asking which revision of the Bible we're cconsidering to have (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | (...) events. (...) And lots of other archeological and historical evidence. (...) You're avoiding the personal aspects here - and the 'versions' are all pretty much the same (contrary to your statement otherwise). I don't have time to go into how (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Now, now. When I get home (or perhaps tomorrow, if I don't have time tonight) I'll post examples for you, and we'll see how identical they are. For that matter, what do you mean by "personal aspects" in this case? Is the Bible a different (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) Not that I know of. I do it all the time and I never forfeit, just ask me. If you really want to forfeit, you need to ask Rush Limbaugh what equivalence class Clinton is in. Although if Dubya wins, and in 2008 Hillary (divorced at this point) (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | | (...) If I may leap in at this point..... Just got in from work - I'm on the west coast right now so I'm a little behind you east and central time-zoners. I want to make a few points at this juncture with a disclaimer up front: I enjoyed reading (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) One of the thoughts I often had is that Islam did a much better job of creating a religion than Christianity did. Some of the reasons: #1 - Their prophet wrote "The Book". #2 - Their prophet lived long enough after getting the ball rolling to (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) Yeah? Well what about Catholics who worship the saints? Isn't that idolatry? Chris :-) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | (...) Yes. As well as all the statues. Bill (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | (...) Sorry to jump, but this just reminds me a former RP (a fundamentalist political party in Turkey) senator, who escaped to Germany after found guilty by the court, just announced a few days ago himself as "messiah". Since it is the second Turk (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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