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(URL) is why I fear the Left. This is cultural war. JOHN (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Yeah ok whatever. That is bad fashion yaya-crappola. And I really doubt this stuff has any political value to it whatever, so I seriously dislike you categorizing the 'Left' as supporting this stuff. I could point to extreme far rightists who (...) (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) So, what's that got to do with the Left per se? I mean, as far as I can tell, the only difference is that the Left would want to allow such a shift, whereas the Right would want to disallow it. I don't think the Left is actually *encouraging* (...) (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) There's a lot of babble, gafla, marketspeak, posery etc, in there but is this the part you want to go to war with?? (...) If so color me scared. THAT's actually a valid notion. (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Would that one of the Right or Left actually DID want to allow people choice. Neither conventional end of the conventional spectrum acts like it does want that. (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Guys, guys. I think John is just sickened by that terrible outfit: (URL) model for Davidelfin> This is purely a "he's wearing what?" situation not a "he's afirming his choice to what?" situation. ~Kevoh tongue -> cheek (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) With respect to a cultural shift towards unmanliness, or in general? I mean, I haven't actually seen evidence that the Left cares one way or another in regards to the decline of masculinity, but I have seen a tendancy on the Right of general (...) (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) In general. Both the conventional Right and conventional Left (in the US anyway) want to restrict choices... I think you're right, the right may be a bit more nervous about gender bending but that's small potatoes really. The quote I cited to (...) (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Matters on what you define as "manliness." Some forms of masculinity are rebuffed by the Left - such as not allowing women into the army (the manly-man should never have to rely on women to fight wars). You could say that the Politically (...) (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Always nice to be informed on what the malnutritioned MALE will be wearing this fall, tho! On another level, this whole discussion does say a lot about the political climate/freedoms we do enjoy, regardless what side of the fence you sit on, (...) (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Maybe we should all convert to Islam. Then that sort of thing would never be allowed. But seriously, what exactly are you frightened of? Nothing in there is suggesting that you give up your idea of what a man is. If you are feeling threatened (...) (19 years ago, 8-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Okaay. Thanks for that. (...) I never mentioned "politics"; in fact, I specifically mentioned culture. (...) That would be another discussion, and knock yourself out, but one word of warning-- "Protestantism" is NOT a "religion". (...) What is (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) This has nothing to do with "allowing" anything. I'm not advocating banning or allowing anything. I'm talking about cultural shifts with which I strongly disagree. This is yet another example of those who would want to blur the lines between (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Oh oh oh!!!! I wanna play!! I have to ask and trust me, I know I will probably regret this, I really did trying to stay out of this (well not really) but what exactly do ~YOU~ mean by "Protestantism" is NOT a "religion". I would hate to (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) "We are watching the birth of a hybrid man. ... Why not put on a pink-flowered shirt and try out a partner-swapping club?" asked Le Louet, stressing that the study had focused on men aged between 20 and 35. It is a complete and utter load of (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Seriously? It's at the heart of the equality issue. The Left thinks that in order for women to become equal with men, they must imitate men. It is the Left who is uncomfortable with distinct male/female roles. They have hopelessly confused (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Christianity is a religion. Protestantism is a branch of Christianity. It is a broad term that is useless in this context. (...) I didn't say I didn't "get" the point, I wanted him to spell it out. JOHN (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Be my guest. (...) And maybe not. Maybe I want my kids and the next generation to eschew such silly ideas that men should look and act more like women and women should look and act more like men. What if men looked and acted like men, and (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) And your parents probably saw rock 'n' roll as decadent too. ROSCO (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) There are many aspects of it that most certainly are decadent, wouldn't you say? JOHN (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Why would anyone want someone to explain something they already understood? Janey "Red Brick" (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Every step forward takes turns that make SOME people uncomfortable. How do you think people in the front of the bus felt when Rosa Parks refused to move??? Or how do you think men felt when Paulina Davis fought to allow wives to maintain (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Certainly, but I also see it as an important part of western culture, don't you? ROSCO (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Teach them well, and they'll make reasonable choices. They may even follow in your footsteps. Whatever they do, I at least hope you'll respect their choices, even if they choose to put on a pink shirt. Besides, I don't think androgyny is the (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Verrrrry Scottish of you, your readers expect better of you. I think things flow better when one is more explicit about what points one is making. (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) In other words, they can be (URL) Separate But Equal.> I see... Dave! (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I guess what I don't understand is why this is suddenly apparent--or why it's a problem--now, of all times? I don't comprehend the term "hybrid men," so I won't use it here. However, I will point out that the foiling of gender-related (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Except for the part that I'm of Irish descent. (...) I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I asked in the first place. JOHN (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I think that's exactly the ideological goal. I think some believe this to be the ultimate expression of humanity. (...) WHICH "stereotypical roles"??? Fatherhood? Husband? Any individual can do whatever they want, but holding up such a silly (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) So I assume you believe that separate bathrooms for men and women is sexist and wrong? JOHN (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) FOUL!!! This has everything to do with this nonsensical, idiotic term! That is what I'm talking about! (...) Perhaps we could discuss a specific example of an industrialized culture? (...) I would take issue with your pejorative "regressive", (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) As a matter of fact, I do think it's pointless. I briefly addressed (URL) this very point> a while back (admittedly, while you were sort of sitting-out from ot.debate). Dave! (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Small edit--there should have been a smiley on that reply, since my early post was replying to (so you proably weren't sitting out!) Dave! (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) No point. I was just wondering why the change of heart - so I asked a question, which you haven't answered. What happened to you staying out of OTD? Change your mind? (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well, if you don't like the term, that's fine with me. I object to it because it's not usefully descriptive. However, I have the sense that your beef is with the underlying idea represented by this so-called "hybrid man," rather than with the (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) 40 years ago would be 1965. Are you saying the decade of free love, rock 'n' roll, and rampant drug use is more moral than today. In the 1940's, America had invented a weapon that could kill 100,000 people in one blast, while perfecting (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I'm in the "I'm not sure we need to separate mens and womens restrooms" camp also. There is a minor point about the non-privacy of urinals, but then we could either put a urinal in each stall, or we could put the urinals in their own room, or (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Please, don't remind me. Steve Bliss, feeling a little old (or maybe the recent string of long work days is wearing me down) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well, not necessarily you per se, but it's one of those things that the Right is generally against. Gay marriage being the big ticket item at the moment. Things like that, restrictions on stem cell research, and even things like gambling & (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Ah, fair enough. I read a kind of "what happened to you staying out of OTD and staying there" tone which apparently wasn't intended. Bad read. Actually, I enjoy the stimulating exchange of ideas here, but back then, the subject matter got too (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Then you obviously give more credence to the influence a few fashion designers have than I do. (...) But what kind of father? What kind of husband? As much as you'd like to think otherwise, there's no one single blueprint for fulfilling either (...) (19 years ago, 9-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Time flies;-) Let's say 45 years. (...) That's one way to look at it. Another way is that it saved 10,000s of lives as well. (...) Yes, but that was in an effort to defend our country. Yeah, war is hell-- so don't start one (speaking to (...) (19 years ago, 10-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) No, you are correct Sir! Yesss! (my best imitation of Phil Hartman doing Ed McMahon:-) (...) Like the people who are wearing them are in a MP skit-- too silly for my taste. (...) I only wanted to see an example to which we could perhaps make (...) (19 years ago, 10-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) What if I took 2 polls and asking men and then women whether or not they'd like to see unisex restrooms-- how do you suppose the results would differ? You as a male may think it's pointless, but I seriously doubt that women would feel the same (...) (19 years ago, 10-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) It's all how you look at it. The Right is against the Left redefining marriage. (...) Mainly the Right is against government funding for such research. Same with abortion. But yes, there is a moral component to it as well. (...) Prostitution, (...) (19 years ago, 10-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I am looking at this as a vision for the future that some influential people have, and I don't like it. (...) There doesn't have to be. (...) Hmm. I don't know. The vision of "hybrid-man" sounds narcissistic and selfish-- not generally known (...) (19 years ago, 11-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) There you go, making bad impressions again. (...) Mine, too, to be honest. But my point was that notions of fashion-based gender differences have been mutable for at least centuries, and I intended the fops of old as examples of this. (...) (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Not to steer it in a totally different direction, but I still just don't get that. It's not the act redefining that you object to (or, it SHOULDN'T be). Redefining "who's allowed to vote" or "which race can use this bathroom" I'll hope you'll (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Frank has already given a (URL) discussion> of this objection, so I'll defer to him on this point. If the constraints of cost and space were somehow eliminated, would you object to the mandatory inclusion of a gender-neutral bathroom facility (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) This may be an unintentional misstatement of the facts. My impression is that an all-out ban on stem-cell research would receive massive support from the Right, but the Right realizes that it's a game of inches. First, ban government funding (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) This is why I fear the right - they will claim anything that offends their sensiblities is the "left", and it's all usually a smokescreen for saying, "I hate anything that is different from me." Blowing up bad taste into a cultural litmus test (...) (19 years ago, 14-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) ...and speaking of fearing the left, when I visited a friend at his dorm at UC Berekeley, the bathrooms on his floor where unisex. I tell you, it ruins romance to have a girl into the stall next to you and...well, there is a point where too (...) (19 years ago, 14-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I visited an MIT dorm once that had a unixex bathroom, with showers... You bring up an interesting and quaint "difference" between males and females. Culture hides the fact that females can have digestive outbursts just as males do, while (...) (19 years ago, 14-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Some segments of society feel that, but it has nothing to do with what I just said (though I suppose if you feel that I didn't qualify "romance" as only applying to females with me, I can understand the mistake). ;-) -->Bruce<-- (19 years ago, 14-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The Right's objection to stem cell research revolves around the use of fetal stem cells. It is their fear that unborn fetuses will become stem cell gardens for research. I know of no objections to the usage of other types of stem cells such as (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Many places actually have those-- they are called "family bathrooms", and are a good idea for that reason. (...) In theory that's fine, but in practical terms a nightmare. (...) Again, efficiency is WAY more important than being "PC". (my new (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Every person has the right to choose one person of the opposite sex for marriage and have that union recognized by the government. The exact same right for everyone. If one choses a same-sex partner, or 3 partners, or any variety of farm (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I don't see why, honestly. Or, if it is a big problem, then why not have two separate gender-neutral bathrooms? (...) It sounds as though you're respecting the distinctiveness of the 2 sexes more than you are respecting a person of either of (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Sorry for the ambiguity--it wasn't an attept to trap you. I was referring to fetal stem cells, which scientific consensus identifies as likely the most fruitful source of therapeutic treatments. The silliness of the Right's objection is (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) There is no need for women to be placed on pedestals, once you realise they can create their own stools. pete.w (19 years ago, 23-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well, yeah, until they've wrecked'em. JOHN FUT.pun (19 years ago, 23-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Or maybe (URL) not.> Well, how about that! And right in my own backyard. Heck, I don't have any let's-kill-as-many-e...s-possible agenda; I just want the science to proceed. This is very encouraging, though of course we'll need to see more (...) (19 years ago, 24-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) As you have noted elsewhere, this consensus most certainly doesn't exist and scientific progress can most likely procede without the use of fetal stem cells. (...) This is actually a good point. I know that numerous eggs are used purely for (...) (19 years ago, 24-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) All politicians are most interested in the unthinking flock. Both sides have a flock like this that will beleive and regurgitate what ever they are told, expecially when it is what they want to hear. Niether party is any better than the other (...) (19 years ago, 24-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Since I've already ceded that point, I think we can move on. Also, I don't know what I was smoking that led me to fail to distinguish between fetal and embryonic, which really is central in this context. My apologies. (...) We need to define (...) (19 years ago, 27-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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