 | | Dog in pool incident
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(...) It happened when I was 16 years old. I was living in Michigan at the time and in the summer I made a trip to visit my family in California. Since my friends helped me get the pool running that summer, my mother agreed to let them swim there (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I understand the motivation too, I think (who can be *sure* they understand the motivation of others?). But I cannot condone force initiation. We must exhaust the rule of law first before we get that extreme. I share your concern about farming (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) How do you mean 'only' Frank? I mean, you could just type an email to your senator and figure that you've done your part. That would be an alternative action. But it wouldn't do anything. You could picket in front of the place. That would be (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I was trying to figure out how to say that, but I got hung up on how to actually do what you're suggesting Dan do. What about it? How would Dan, or I, substantiate claims of gross cruelty through negligence and intent? (...) Agreed. But do (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I think there's a real difference between burning down a supposedly empty building (the reports I've read weren't "empty" buildings, and destroyed not just the potentially abusive research, but also research which did not use animals) and (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I would assert that if you wish any success in encouraging people to change their views on the way animals are treated in this country that the onus is upon you to substantiate your claims. If the rest of us think that things are basically OK, (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I don't think he was questioning the reasonability of your statement. He wanted you to cite some of the sources that you've used to come to that conclusion. Actually, I was reading the group yesterday when larry posted and went off to search (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) For the love of heaven, must we start a new thread as to define what a fact is? How about diatribe? Were there not enough facts given at these sites? The answers to your questions are often not right in front of you. Seek well and learn well. (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pork chops anyone?
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(...) of them have cites). But they're better than the front page. (...) They appear to be hung off the media link. Not where I'd think to go first were I looking for facts. So no, in my exploring of a very busy and poorly laid out front page, I did (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) You assume too much. I did that already, or something close to it. Didn't like the quality of sites I found, and thought I'd just (without any aspersions being cast, which is why I just asked outright instead of prefacing it with "I already (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) What if it was an endorsement? Judge the motive before the deed. Sometimes certain causes lend themselves to extremes, so long as the innocent are not endangered. The worst fight I had in my life was when this guy threw my dog in my pool. I (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pork chops anyone?
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(...) By all means, keep reading: (URL) you pass these up the first time around or are these reports the "rhetoric" you were talking about? Dan (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Well, perhaps I've lumped things together. It's something most of us do. On the other hand, I'm not so sure they "distance" themselves from ALF, they certainly mischaracterize the actions in this FAQ: (...) Or perhaps the not so harmless (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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I wasn't born yesterday, my friend. The way I see it, Larry, you have a computer and are smart enough to research the issue of animal abuse (or lack of) for yourself. The fact that you haven't yet (and you admitted this) speaks to your lack of (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pork chops anyone?
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(...) And it certainly wouldn't help the cruel treatment of other animals which aren't bred for meat. I don't have any links, but I volunteered at the RSPCA (Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) for several years, and have seen photos (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Slaughterhouse images
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Warning, not for the squeamish: (URL) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Visit to a slaughterhouse
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Warning, not for the squeamish: (URL) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pork chops anyone?
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(...) I support investigation of this and prosecution if warranted. There are laws on our books against this sort of thing and they need to be enforced. PETA alleges this is pervasive and endemic, (which I'm not convinced they have shown, per se, (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) That's vandalism, which isn't quite as nonviolent a form of civil disobedience as some other ones, but it's small potatoes, I suppose. Actually hitting someone might be a bit of "assault", though. (...) I'm with you on this, Dan. Their FAQ (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Pork chops anyone?
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Warning, not for the squeamish: (URL) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) It's not obvious to *me*. Always looking for the disagreement, eh? I ask for some reading material because I want to have an open mind and do some research and you conclude that I disagree apriori. (...) Not interested in *countering* it. I'm (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) PETA does this? That's news to me! I've heard of PETA protests where people threw pies and even animal blood on employees (mainly execs if I remember correctly) of fur makers and cosmetics companies that use animals for testing. Where did you (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) They are one of the most extreme "animal rights" organizations. While I do feel there probably are some bad practices with animals, I don't think blowing up buildings, burning buildings, and other such destructive (and possibly endangering (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Why? Just curious. Dan (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I think some crop growing methods may be suspect also. Certainly there are situations of overuse of pesticides, and monoculture growing is probably not ideal either, but there's certainly less to potentially get up in arms about. (...) (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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>>In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes: >> >>Seeing how horrid our agricultural practices are... (...) Then I'll rephrase it: "Seeing how horrid much of America's meat related agricultural practices are, in my opinion,..." Is that more (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Do you have any cites for this? You've said it a few times, it may be time to take a closer look. I feel the need for a bit of reading on this topic so if you have some site cites that you feel present the case in a reasoned way, that would be (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: FOTM/LOTM (Loss of the Month) Some thoughts...
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(...) WARNING! Compartmentalized Dork-dom ahead! ;] Larry, I'm not sure why you're so convinced this isn't a .general topic. The discussion was about general "market goings-on" for LEGO. By its "charter", lugnet.off-topic.debate is for non-LEGO (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.admin.general)
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| | Re: Ownership
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(...) Really? I just thought it was just an extension of man's territorial nature (maybe no different than dogs pissing on trees to mark territory). (...) Yeah, at what point can it be called exploitation? I think there is such thing as collective (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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Frank: Try envisioning the greater ethic behind my statement about ownership and maybe you'll appreciate it more. I think by picking it apart and making it overly technical, you've missed the greater lesson. If you want to disagree with the notion (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Really? That's something I didn't know (but then again I dislike all seafood anyway so I know very little about it). Just out of curiousity, how does it make them poisonous? Is there some sort of drastic chemical change that happens when (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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(...) Keep reading. I think he came to grips with that contradiction and changed his viewpoint a bit. Very laudable! (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Ownership (was: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?))
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(...) I've been having a crisis of faith over the past several months and tried to bring it up unsuccessfully once before, but this ties into it. To get to the point, I'm having trouble justifying ownership. The entire notion of ownership actually. (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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(...) Uh Duane...it appears as if you are saying that you're glad that the first ammendment was violated by restricting the press, but you'd never want to see the press restricted. What gives? Chris (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Sure you were. Weren't you purposely neglecting to consider the source of the food? :-) Chris (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Hmm, since we've been playing with taking interpretations to extremes to see how they work out, a technique which I wholeheartedly endorse... - Can you justify your ownership of anything metal? The metal was "found". - Can you justify your (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) For the sake of staying within what I consider dubious givens, I would say that it was impossible for you to acquire ownership of sentient (the real meaning, not your vernacular one) beings (cows) without excercising some kind of 'might makes (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Don't I do this by discussing concepts of morality with you? (...) Do you mean the ability to conceive of morality and the lack there of, and different sets of morals? Or do you mean the tendency to act in a way that we consider moral? (...) (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Honest question-- is this possible? I know that killing lobsters "incorrectly" makes them poisonous to eat. (...) Completely agree. However, since I don't kill my own cows, I feel quite morally distant from the act of their death-- But I (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I say if you must eat them, at least kill them swiftly before tossing them in the boiling water. Why miss opportunities to be humane? It's good self discipline and shows character, in my opinion. For example, when an old and sick or dying pet (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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