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Hi all, Well it's been a long time coming but we now have a version of the Contributor Agreement (CA) license and readme to be distributed alongside new versions of the parts library. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all those who have (...) (18 years ago, 4-Nov-06, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.announce) !!
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(...) no replies so far :-( we will than call for the ratification, though we would really appreciate some comments from people with legal knowledge, better experience in copyright matters before going to vote. w. (17 years ago, 16-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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First, let me disclaim that this is not legal advice. It is merely my understanding of the CA License. I do have some legal knowledge of copyrights, but for any legal advice please contact and retain an attorney. Second, I don't know whether this is (...) (17 years ago, 17-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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Hi Zach, (...) Actually it is misspelt throughout the Licence but I can't be bothered to go through it. Insofar as LDraw has an official language it is Australian English. (...) Good point. Perhaps an additional comment like: In order to avoid the (...) (17 years ago, 17-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Maybe It's a stupid question but here goes ... Does this mean when you put a rendering (or rendered animation) on the Internet you must scribble 100+ names on the png / frames / end credits. If so I think that's very restricting, a simple (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Maybe it's just me, but if renderings are considered derivative works, we need to seriously step back and think long and hard about whether or not we are OK with that. I personally think that forcing renderings to have text on them (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I agree, clarification on rendered images is needed. If a rendering using LDraw parts is a derivative work, and derivative works are required to visibly display credit, that's a problem. It won't show up on my renders; I don't burn "Credit: (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) As one of the CA's authors, my view on this is that you should state somewhere in your distribution of the image (i.e. on the web page hosting it, as a text file in a .zip, on the image itself, etc...) that the content were derived from the (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) In publishing, that type of info is usually contained in a colophon, the use of which is sadly fading from popularity. Some few web sites include this level of detail in their "About" section. I agree it would be nice to see attribution in (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) There is one significant difference between LDraw and Photoshop in that you pay for the right to use Photoshop without giving credit. That said I don't think we need to vandalise our images to put the credit in but I'm not completely averse to (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) All of the parts authors would have to agree to that, because (and my knowledge is limited so if I mistake any assumptions let me know) the copyright of the part file seems to be held by the parts author not the LDraw Parts Library or any (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) While rendered images are Derivative Works, I do not think you would have to add anything such as a copyright notice to them. The language of the CALicense.txt paragraph 4.2 says to the extent reasonably practicable or at a minimum where you (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) This is crazy talk. People sign paintings, but nobody is ever gonna staple a note on the back of a painting that says, "This painting was created with ACME brand paints and brushes." Please don't insert any such crazy demand in the ldraw (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I wonder whether a model file really qualifies as a "collective work" under this definition since an LDR file doesn't actually contain the parts definitions, only references to them. (Unless of course, the external parts definitions are (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) guys, before speculation grow wild I'll take the whole thing back to the steerco. thx for any input - though I have to admit that some posts go further than my wildest dreams ever did. as far as I understand the license both license files have (...) (17 years ago, 18-Jan-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) hi folks, taking into account all your valuable input the steerco has reworded the initial CAreadme.txt file in response to concerns which have been arisen in the disussion. please learn that we haven't changed a single character in the actual (...) (17 years ago, 2-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.announce) !
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(...) So, basically, the licence means you need to credit LDraw whenever you render/create a model from it, but SteerCo aren't bothered unless its for commercial use? (17 years ago, 2-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Precisely. Tim (17 years ago, 3-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Wow! In my opinion, that's an extremely poor interpretation of "derivative works". Consider the model file. It most likely contains no actual bits of the LDRAW library. It simply contains references to the parts in the library, by names like (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) In the case of model files I agree it is muddy however a model file means little without the parts to use it. If people wish to try to sell LDraw files without an attribution they are welcome to do so and you are probably right that LDraw.org (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I disagree. A sculpture may contain obvious marks from a distinctive chisel, but is not a derivative of that chisel. Now if you make a new chisel based on the distinctive chisel, that's a derivative work. (...) Again, I disagree. We clearly (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) That is not a fair analogy. Arguably POVray (or ldglite or ldview) is the chisel but the parts are a necessary part of the final work. There is no way to use a typical LDraw file without the parts library to render a scene. (...) You haven't (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Actually I was thinking of the LDraw library as the chisel(s), and to be honest, I don't understand why it's an unfair analogy. It just seems obvious to me. But anyhow, look, I like Ldraw files and renders. I want to see more of them. And (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I figured you were which is why I called it unfair. Without the library the render cannot exist. Without the library the LDraw file is just a meaningless list of transformations and codes. (...) Which is precisely why we are stating we will (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Actually I'm fairly certain the folks at Lego could easily devise a way to import a model file into LDD on a PC with NONE of the official Ldraw files installed. They could then generate a rendering in LDD and publish that on the internet, (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Sorry, that doesn't work for me. The license describes how someone must behave; lack of prosecution for non-compliance doesn't erase the ethical imperative to follow the agreement. And, since the non-commercial disclaimer is not actually part (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) In that case I agree it wouldn't be a derivative work. I am becoming more and more convinced that an MPD isn't actually a derivative work. (...) If people are willing to go to the effort of making or using an alternate part library in order to (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I'm not sure I agree with the ethical imperative argument. There are plenty of old laws on statute books that no-one follows or expects to follow but are still there. Either way, ethical decisions are made on an individual basis (including the (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I agree. The way the readme puts it is not in accord with what the license requires. Furthermore, because there is a disclaimer in readme that it is not a license, that whole bit can and should be ignored and only the license followed. If (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) If you are referring to the non-pursuit section of the readme it is most definitely in accord with the license. As you say a license is only as good as its enforcement but stating a policy of enforcement does not change the license. As an (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) don, you wouldn't have a model file at all without the parts library. at least not without extreme effort because of the missing visual feedback. I'll give you some codes: CM051P09.dat, HF300P09.dat, CM060P14.dat, CM053P03.dat, CM250P02.dat (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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In lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, Timothy Gould wrote: [snip-snap] (...) the steerco has considered the option to change the license but considering that we weren't able to track down 18 people last time (URL) (we are still 33 parts behind in the rewrite (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Actually there is. Anton Raves' library comes immediately to mind. Using that you're not using any information from the LDRAW parts, only the placement information in the model file. And his is not the only library of Lego parts in the (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) This is definitely wrong! There is nothing unique with the LDRAW library. It doesn't have a special place in the universe - it's just another information collection. My BlockCAD program can load *some* LDRAW model files and render a picture (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) This is also not true. BlockCAD has its own part library, not at all connected to the LDRAW library, but BlockCAD *can* save a model in the LDRAW format, thereby making it possible to render a BlockCAD model with the LDRAW compatible programs. (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I did think of Anton Rave's library and LGEO but there aren't a lot of models which use exclusively parts from LGEO (I have never used Anton's library). Sure you can provide a counter-example and of course LDraw.org has no control over renders (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) They provide exactly that. *Counter examples* to your argumentation. If you don't know what to do with a counter example, that's your problem. In the mathematics world, *one* counter example is enough to make a 'proof' invalid. I invalidated (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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I missed this one at first. (...) What kind of language is that for a LDRAW official? Even if hiding behind '(in a personal capacity)'? I deplore this kind of 'argumentation' - you're just expressing your own opinion, and have no right calling the (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) It's quite condescending to express the view that alternative libraries are created/used just 'in order to avoid writing ...'. All of those alternatives were in existance long before the 'license'. Actually it sounds more like ldraw.org is (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Now this is more along the lines of what I'd consider a derivative work according to the license, but only if their part file library actually includes ldraw primitive files, or text copied from the parts or primitive files. If they just (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) hi anders, the readme is nothing than a human readable version of the legal text (which in the end tells us that lawyers are not human) and it is basically a copy of this: (URL) (the steerco haven't written it), we (the 2006/2007 steerco) (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Hi Anders, Please don't get all excited about the word rubbish. I'm OK with it. You and I are from a different generation and apparently "smack talk" is the language of the new generation. This was pretty mild by the new standard, so let's (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I hear you, but I still find it difficult to read posts like Tim's. It's important to me, I just couldn't let it slide. As you say, probably a sign of my age (celebrated my 53:rd birthday yesterday). (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I agree I shouldn't have used that word although it wasn't meant in a particularly offensive manner. Since Don did not seem to take it too badly I didn't apologise for it but had he I would have. And frankly there are more ways to be rude than (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Apparently with all the legal posturing going on here, people missed this. Seems to me there's no need to fret about anything. Use the tools as you always have and nothing bad will happen. Play on. Allister (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I wouldn't bother quoting the mathematical world at me. I'm well aware of what defines a mathematical proof or disproof. But... since you seem to wish to be pedantic I said what FURTHER point does it bring. The postulate was already disproved (...) (17 years ago, 5-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Perhaps people would prefer if we changed that paragraph to something like this in the README Tim ---- LDraw.org is the sole entity responsible for enforcement of the Parts Library copyrights. LDraw.org does not consider rendered images or (...) (17 years ago, 6-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Anders, I'm sorry to say this but all your comments to me in this thread have been very negative without offering anything positive in return (by way of suggestions for improvements for example). Don made some good points and through debate (...) (17 years ago, 6-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I think that is more workable, since it limits the README to addressing the interpretation of terminology in the license, rather than elaborating/modifying the actual license. Steve (17 years ago, 6-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I do think we should try to get it enshrined in the Constitution too. I really doubt it's ever going to be an issue but it should go some way to assuaging people's worries. Tim (17 years ago, 6-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Wouldn't this include modifying/converting...publishing the dat files themselves (a true derivative work)? (17 years ago, 7-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Probably... maybe "LDraw.org does not consider LDraw model files (defined as being MPDs or LDR files whose main purpose is creating a model, ultimate discretion lies with the current LDraw SteerCo) to be derivative works of the Parts Library." (...) (17 years ago, 7-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) of course with the bit about rendered images still left in... sorry. It's late :) Tim (17 years ago, 7-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Yeah, I think the meaning was there, but the language was still a bit unclear. Here's a nice place to look for ideas on how to rework the language. (URL) section on Software is probably the closest match, and I believe this is the key (...) (17 years ago, 7-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) There is one aspect that I am a little worried about and it deals with unofficial files... we can make it clear what a model file is (references to parts only) but then we have the problem that it is considered good practise to include (...) (17 years ago, 7-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I'm not sure about the exact text but id state derived works as "containing the original file or visual representation/rendering of..." This happily excludes models (except where they include unofficial parts), but includes all renders of both (...) (17 years ago, 7-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Here is a newly revised and _proposed_ CAreadme attempting to deal with most of the issues brought up in this post. Please note this has not gone through the SteerCo and is proposed solely by me in an attempt to move on from this issue as (...) (17 years ago, 10-Feb-07, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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