 | | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) LUGNetters, but I digress. The Lehman DOES indwell LUGNetters and I've just proven it to you. Do you doubt my word? Witness the miracles the Lehman has worked. All those things I mentioned happened to me, personally, and I have had my Road to (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) actually (...) a (...) Somehow I knew that you'd be looking for a way to get my ladders. That aside, you haven't proven anything to me. You've only made assertions which you can't prove. You have no context for proving anything related to your (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Speaking as one of the dark acolytes of Ritvik, we always have room for those who stray from the Pure ABS Faith. (...) Sycophant!! Dave! (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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I've set the FUT back where it belongs, this is a serious debate although couched in humor. (...) The offer is open to any who seek enlightenment, not just you. My previous religion scam, er incorrectly revealed revelation which the world was not (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Oh, don't flatter yourself....like it wasn't obvious! While I found your tale extremely humorous - (which is bad because I just got out of the ICU due to amonia (pneumonia), my ribs are killing me!! I laughed my @$$ off - that's right, I now (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Thank you, Hannibal. (...) You raise good points, Bill, but don't fall into the trap of trying to prove anything about Christ or God, at least to seasoned debaters such as Lar et al. They will eat you for lunch. But that's okay, because we (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) It was whipped up on the spur of the moment. I'm glad it amused, and not too worried if it wasn't perfect. Nobody is perfect, you know, but some of us take comfort in being Forgiven, and some of us take comfort in improving ourselves. I know (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Highlight above, "unknown". (...) I would argue that neither you nor Lar can prove something to the other. Neither of your arguments shall have bearing on the other. Lar won't accept your evidence, and you won't accept his argument that he (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I don't have any reason to doubt that Jesus the man existed, and I don't think that's what Larry's suggesting, either. And I've heard the witness-evidence-tha...p-in-court argument before. Similarly, I've heard it asked why we (skeptics and/or (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Given your assumption, I would certainly agree that the infinite is incomprehensible by the finite. (...) Don't put yourselves (as Christians) down; intellectuals and scientists, I imagine, would believe through Faith just like any other (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I wouldn't, at least not completely. Finite systems can model infinity, categorise it, draw meaningful conclusions about it, etc. They can even simulate things related to some parts of it. I "comprehend" infinity. But most of these infinities (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Idunno, my mother was a Darwinfish-carrying physical anthropologist who believed in God. Bruce (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I agree there. The struggle, if you will, between Science and Christianity is that very drive for emperical evidence to back something up (continuing to play the assumption made by John, even though I believe that God does exist and he is the (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Er, I think you mean "cannot be EXPLAINED naturally". Proven naturally has no meaning. And I'd add "and there is no hope of ever doing so" here, else you're toast. (...) Add "verifiable" here, twice, else you're toast. (...) Because without (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Well, it is still possible for a god to have had a tangible effect, in that it is possible that our universe is just an incredibly good simulation running in another universe. Then "god" would be the programmer who wrote the simulation... Of (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:G4unI7.76u@lugnet.com... (...) My misteak (is that how you spell it? ;o) ), you're right. (...) pick (...) conservation (...) Agreed. (...) me) (...) ...where I say a potential (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) There's a difference, though, between understanding something and proving it exists. Even if a thing is infinite, if it has any perceptible interaction in the universe it can (in theory, at least) be proven to exist, even if we have no hope of (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Dave Schuler" <orrex@excite.com> wrote in message news:G4uqp9.HKB@lugnet.com... (...) proving (...) exist, (...) And I believe that God can, in the form of his interaction here on earth being attributed to him properly. I just haven't studied the (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) That's fine on a personal level, but you have to recognize that faith, evidence(1), and personal experience will never prove His existence to anoter person, as long as that person is objective and subjects your assertions to critical analysis. (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Big Lar caught in his own trap (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I presume, confidently, that you refer to those who improve ourselves. Thanx, I'm glad you prefer my sort. :) One doesn't preclude the other. I believe I have been forgiven of quite a lot, but I also strive to continuously improve myself. This (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Dave Schuler" <orrex@excite.com> wrote in message news:G4urs9.L3A@lugnet.com... (...) Yep, I agree. Each individual has to come to this realization for himself or herself. Until its personal, no amount of convincing really helps. It may prompt them (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) No trap, I was laying one, and it worked. I'm a big eater, he couldn't handle my lunch. Besides, I was using a martial arts/fencing/military tactic of realizing a perceived weakness, telegraphing it to lure the opponent and then using it to my (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) This is what perplexes me about fundamentalist religion. Given that God is infinite and transcendent, how can any human claim to have perfect or privileged knowledge of God? How can anyone of faith actually be sure that he or she has found the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) ?? In the way the LUGNet trademark device has beauty? That is, it's logically inconsistent, but pretty, in a decorative way? This and something David Low said got me thinking. Is it possible that all or part of the intellectual attractiveness (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Sorry guys - saying that belief in God requires a leap of faith - what you're saying in essence - is exactly what Kant said. God is, however, not removed from reality. Belief in God can indeed be arrived at through rational considerations - (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Jon, Good points :-) I just haven't arrived at a rational explanation yet, besides reading some philosophers for class - and those easily get debunked if you think hard enough. Though I like C.S. Lewis, he doesn't seem that debunkable, but I haven't (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Tim - What do you believe? Whether or not you have a 'rational' explaination... -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) What are you trying to do? Are you the gate keeper of heaven (or hell)? Selçuk (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Hardly. In the few minutes I have each day to jump into the fray, I've noticed a distinct tendency of many to jab at Christianity, without ever stating their own positions. This morning (my local time), I've merely asked a few of the posters (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Selçuk Göre" <ssgore@superonline.com> wrote in message news:3A27D64E.2969F5...ine.com... (...) He's just curious, really. I'm a Christian, by believing in the teachings of Christ in the Bible. I share the same sentiments on how flawed (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Oh, Ok. I must have missed Bill's "flaws". Can you point the way for me? (what posting?) Or perhaps state your sentiments? -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I have the sense that Bill's view of "flawed 'Christianity'" does not mean that Christianity itself is flawed, but rather that people who alleged to follow Christianity (conquistodores et al) were flawed. Is that what you were getting at, Tim? (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Yep! Wow, Dave! you're right there when I need ya. I just got posting not two seconds ago referring to you. ...and now I'm off, got stuff to do. This looks pretty interesting though :) -Tim (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Jon Kozan" <jauction@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:G4wFFH.25F@lugnet.com... (...) and (...) Maybe Bill didn't outline them all here, but I'm still searching, here's the little bit I found: (URL) last sentence of Bill's first paragraph) Maybe (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) That's it exactly, and it applies pretty much to any belief system. That is, the system's truth or falsehood isn't determined by the zaniness or non-zaniness of its supporters. Dave! (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) That's why there are still Marxists and Communists in the world! (And, some would argue, Greens and Libertarians.) best LFB (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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<snipped even more capriciously than usual!> (...) I agree. Those Marx brothers were pretty zany all right. Yet their belief system (the right to wear silly hats, have dark eyebrows, wave cigars leeringly at matronly women, and honk a large bicycle (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Enduring Marxism
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(...) It's amazing to think that some of their film work is almost 70 years old! Duck Soup, in its day, was deemed so volatile that Il Duce banned its screening in Italy for several years, and its madcap anti-war sentiment was echoed fully 40 years (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) "It must be a guy thing"??? I'm thinking that you're actually more comfortable with the response Dave! provided...?? -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Jon Kozan" <jauction@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:G4wt23.J1K@lugnet.com... (...) DOH! The third paragraph is what I think I meant to say. "I am more offended than you by what I see in Christendom." :o) -- Tim Courtney - tim@zacktron.com (URL) (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Ah. I suppose that's the beauty of God - that He entrusts His perfect plan into the hands of imperfect people - yet it will not fail. :-) -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(There's a lot here and it would make sense to split up further replies into separate threads depending on the topics below - just a thought) (...) How do you define "saved"? Don't abuse religious language without providing a context for your (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) AMEN! ;^) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Hmmmm. (...) But he does! I have witnessed all that Lar has experienced! Witness of Lar's holy experiences as well as inspiration for LEGO constructions are provided to me vicariously in my sleep. (...) Now he does. (...) He hasn't suggested (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I'm not Larry, but I have disdain for self-delusion in general. Don't you? Obviously we disagree about whether Christianity is delusion, but I'm not getting why you would possibly assert that someone's disdain for a particular bit of (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Not to chime in too much this this discussion sounds more like a debate than off.topic.fun. Scott S. -- Want LEGO Elements at Great Prices? Visit The Sanburn Systems Company www.sanburnsystems.com Scott E. Sanburn, Owner (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) It leaked over here when a .debate novice set FUT incorrectly to point here just because something funny was said. I set the FUT back in my reply, but of course, once ONE post appears in a group, you always run the risk of latecomers missing (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.admin.general)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Sorry Jon, but I think you should be feeling "trapped"..:-) (...) Hey I'm good and righteous, too. Selçuk (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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For closure, in order to make the historical record complete. In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Jon Kozan writes: <snip> a very long and point by point "refutation" Jon, you missed the point. The real question here, which you didn't address, is "is this (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I doubt that the discussion will ever truly end, although the thread certainly will.... Thank-you for the perspective that you provided, as I suspect that although you only present it in illustrative form, that it actually provides a framework (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events
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OK, I want to clarify a bit more here in hopes that this will be the end. (...) n.b. I'm no historian, and I'd love to have LFB chime in here, this is his area of specialty. Nothing that you did not personally witness can be "proven" to have (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Touché. -John (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | mirror mirror on the wall, who's the stubbornest of them all?
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(...) Touché indeed. But before you celebrate too much, I submit Jon was talking about himself when he made the statement... :-) ++Lar (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: mirror mirror on the wall, who's the stubbornest of them all?
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(...) Not really. And not you particularly either, although perhaps others know better than I... :-) It was meant as a reminder to us all that we should examine our positions and conclusions carefully. Name-slogging probably doesn't help. But it (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: An impressive chapter in the perspective of LAR. Certainly filled with valid and compelling points for all to consider. I had to think hard before replying in fact. Again, well written and indeed (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events
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(...) Actually, the first claim is not even a miracle at all, I mean "born of a virgin". AFAIK, it is a rare but normal thing. I don't know how rare or frequent it is, but it can be faced from time to time, as a doctor said to me. Sometimes, the (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events
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(...) Ack, my ears are burning! (Or are those my cloven hooves?) :) Guilty as charged, at least as far as history generis. (...) It's not so much that things can't be proven to occur as that human language is made up of signifiers--and like the old (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events)
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(...) This is my ++Lar. Is he not nifty? Worship the ++Lar. Steve (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events)
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(...) "Do not taunt Happy Fun ++Lar." ;) At the risk of making this less .debate and more .fun, has anyone ever seen an old magazine called "X" (which became, I believe, the strangely-monikered "Dryer Systems Magazine"), which was a counterculture (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events
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(...) I've been out with you and seen you ogling the girls wearing Devil Horns. I've also never seen you with your shoes off. So... no comment. (...) not sure if your beef is with me or not. But suffice it to say I don't disagree with what you said (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events)
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(...) At this point, my cow-orkers all think I'm nuts. LOL, indeed. Wasn't there a line about "Light fuse on ++Lar, set on ground, and walk away quickly"? (...) Never heard of it. Found some links to it, but they were all dead. Seems that Dryer has (...) (24 years ago, 7-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events)
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(...) Save for the occasional Michigoose... obLarritarians... Steve, I am surprised you haven't become officially indoctrinated and sanctified... -John (Larritarian in good standing) (...) (24 years ago, 7-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events)
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(...) I never completed the initiation rite (ie, the free love offering of bricks). Heck, I can't connect with ++Lar to deliver the stuff he's buying from me. Steve (24 years ago, 8-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events)
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(...) Correction-- *a* brick. Being a Larritarian isn't hard, and it has it's rewards......[1] (...) [1] These rewards are very *tangible* I assure you all! -John (24 years ago, 8-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I know I'm way late, but I was wandering through when I came across this little statement. The thought occurred to me that the cruelest thing that Jesus could do for you ++Lar is to bring you into heaven. I mean, if you've spent a major (...) (24 years ago, 9-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events
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Actually, it is quite easy to get pregnant without losing the hymen - it DOES pass fluids. Complicating the matter is the fact that some women have been known to have hymens that heal at least once. (...) -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape (...) (24 years ago, 13-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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