Subject:
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Re: Don Quixote puts away his lance (was Re: McDonalds set
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 28 Sep 1999 01:18:25 GMT
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Viewed:
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1202 times
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I think what this is really about is how highly do you rate property rights.
Larry seems to be arguing that the right to property superceeds
everything else.
It's impossible to say what's right in this hypothetical situation, since
so much depends on other hypothetical facts that haven't been
stated.
BUT... _IF_ there is an ultimate human right then I would say that right
is to do with having the opportunity to grow and develop as a human being.
To be able to interact with other people - to learn to love others and to be
loved, to develop friendships, to make decisions and accept
responsibility for the consequences. In short - to have the chance to
lead a fulfilling life.
Now we generally accept property rights because experience shows
that granting property rights is in most cases vitally important in
ensuring the kind of social framework that let's people develop in
the way I've just described. But the key is it's a derived right.
It seems to me that Larry is trying to turn property rights into THE
fundamental right from which everything else is derived. And
it also seems to me that to do so is to devalue our humanity. There
is far more to life than simply owning material goods, and to try
to base everything on having the right to own goods is
spiritually empty (religious language) or lacking in humanity
(secular language). This hypothetical example of the drugger
is a good case where perhaps you need to remember that
property rights are important as long as they help in the maintenance
of a stable society that assists people to live fulfilling lives. A less
hypothetical example is perhaps East Timor, where the right
of the people of East Timor to live arguably overrides the rights
of the militia there to own certain property items (ie. the gun's
they're using to kill the local inhabitants).
Perhaps I'm mistaken in what Larry is arguing (it'd be interesting
to see a statement of what Larry believes, or of where the Libertarian
party gets it's principles from - perhaps there is one lurking around
here which I've missed).
Simon
http://www.SimonRobinson.com
John Neal <johnneal@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:37EFE8B6.95A291A5@uswest.net...
>
>
> Larry Pieniazek wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > > 1. In Europe, a woman was near death from a very unusual kind of • cancer. [2]
> > > The doctors thought that one drug -- a form of radium discovered • by a
> > > druggist in the same town -- might save her life. The druggist • paid $400
> > > for the radium and charged $4,000 for a small dose of the drug. • Heinz,
> > > the sick woman's husband, went to everyone he knew to borrow the • money
> > > and tried every legal means, but he could only raise $2000, half • of the
> > > drug's selling price. Heinz pleaded with the druggist, explaining • to him
> > > that his wife was dying. He presented several options to the • druggist:
> > > sell the drug to Heinz at a cheaper price, let Heinz pay for the • drug in
> > > installments or let Heinz pay for it at a later date. But the • druggist
> > > said, "No, I discovered the drug and I*m going to make money from • it."
> > > Heinz is now considering breaking into the drug store and stealing • for
> > > his wife.
> > >
> > > 2. Of course, "dying of cancer" is not the same as "ignorant people • being
> > > ripped of on eBay". But it's the same kind of problem.
> >
> > Weeeelllll... I know I'm walking into the same old debate as before!
> >
> > But it seems SO clear cut to me. In my opinion Heinz doesn't have the
> > right to the drug. If this drug really truly is somehting Heinz is
> > incapable of inventing for himself, it's not just or right to defraud
> > the druggist from his due. The druggist presumably went to school for
> > years to learn how to make it. This may be the only chance he has to
> > recoup that investment.
>
> This is why Libertarianism breaks down because mean people suck. Not all • people
> are good. If *everyone* had a good heart, people would be able to respect
> property rights AND each other's needs as well. But as it is, a heartless
> Bunghole is considered perfectly within his rights to refrain from helping • this
> family out, and is morally blameless. I say "poo" to a system as such. • No man is
> an island, and, like it or not, <dons Larflame retardant suit> we *are* • our
> brother's keeper.
>
> > Now, were I the druggist I'd happily take a time payment scheme if Heinz
> > was credit worthy. But the druggist may not care about his reputation
> > within the town and that's his right. Heck, even if Heinz shows up with
> > the entire 4K in cash the druggist is within his rights to refuse to
> > sell.
>
> See above. I'm sure I could get many to agree that the druggist's actions • are
> subhuman. There is something sick and wrong with a system that values • property
> more than life. What Libertarianism needs is a moral code. As I have • said
> before, it needs Christianity. [1]
>
> -John
>
>
> [1] blatant troll to Lar, but seriously submitted as well.
>
> > Doing business (choosing to associate) is itself a good and there is no
> > right to free goods, no right to demand to associate with someone who
> > chooses not to associate with you.
> >
> > If THAT doesn't generate some backflame then we truly HAVE beat this
> > topic to death.
> >
> > One can only hope.
> >
> > --
> > Larry Pieniazek larryp@novera.com http://my.voyager.net/lar
> > - - - Web Application Integration! http://www.novera.com
> > fund Lugnet(tm): http://www.ebates.com/ Member ref: lar, 1/2 $$ to
> > lugnet.
> >
> > NOTE: I have left CTP, effective 18 June 99, and my CTP email
> > will not work after then. Please switch to my Novera ID.
>
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